Of those, H&S is the best all around. But the offerings are so vast that some will be great, some so-so, and some dreck.

Remember, too, that Super number does not mean thread count. Also, higher super numbers don't necessarily correlate with quality. Some of us prefer non-supers, for the most part.

 

Oxxford suit separates?!?

Come to think of it, I think I saw those being sold next to the Charvet pre-tied bowties...

 

Oxxford suit separates?!?

Come to think of it, I think I saw those being sold next to the Charvet pre-tied bowties...

Typing error on my part. Sorry about that. I often get sidetracked very easily. I apologize for any inconvenience this might cause for anybody.

 

Of those, H&S is the best all around. But the offerings are so vast that some will be great, some so-so, and some dreck.

Remember, too, that Super number does not mean thread count. Also, higher super numbers don't necessarily correlate with quality. Some of us prefer non-supers, for the most part.

Given the prices that Oxxford charges for the clothes sold under their name that they actually make, I would think that all of Oxxford's farbics, regardless of what source they are from, would be excellent. Unless, of course, you get a defective garment and/or a defective fabric, which I am sure is extrordinarily rare with Oxxford, again given the prices.

 

Given the prices that Oxxford charges for the clothes sold under their name that they actually make, I would think that all of Oxxford's farbics, regardless of what source they are from, would be excellent. Unless, of course, you get a defective garment and/or a defective fabric, which I am sure is extrordinarily rare with Oxxford, again given the prices.

Well, it doesn't work that way. For one thing, Oxxford does not make any of its own cloth. The same corporate parent owns H&S, but that is not the same thing. Second, even H&S is a merchant, not a weaver, so most of what it sells it does not make. Though I understand that they are starting to weave more of their own stuff, out of Chile. Third, any company with a huge line like H&S is going to have some misfires. It would be lovely if we could just trust the entire line to be perfect accross the board, but that's not the real world. Finally, the very best available cloth (in my opinion) is not made by any of these companies, and is (for the most part) not available through any MTM program from any company. MTM is subject to certain economic pressures that make using really high quality cloth that is run off in limited lengths untenable.

 

Well, it doesn't work that way. For one thing, Oxxford does not make any of its own cloth. The same corporate parent owns H&S, but that is not the same thing. Second, even H&S is a merchant, not a weaver, so most of what it sells it does not make. Though I understand that they are starting to weave more of their own stuff, out of Chile. Third, any company with a huge line like H&S is going to have some misfires. It would be lovely if we could just trust the entire line to be perfect accross the board, but that's not the real world. Finally, the very best available cloth (in my opinion) is not made by any of these companies, and is (for the most part) not available through any MTM program from any company. MTM is subject to certain economic pressures that make using really high quality cloth that is run off in limited lengths untenable.

What he said, except for the last sentence (even though qualified by the 'for the most part' in the previous sentence).

 

Well, is there a way to tell the difference in quality by simply touching / examining the fabric, or you simply have to rely on the source's reputation?

I've encountered a lot of tailors who tried to sell me a fabric from a less known manufacturer and they've always claimed their fabrics to be better than Scabal, Zegna, etc. It was really hard to tell the difference by simply touching the cloth sample. At the end of the day, I never bought them because I knew nothing about the manufacturer.

 

There is no infallible way to gauge the quality of cloth, I don't think. Reputation is not bad, but imperfect. Learning how good cloth "feels" and responds to certain stresses is vital. Tailors' judgements can also be useful. There are tailors who I know have an excellent appreciation for cloth, and also direct experience in working with it. But even this is not infallible, as the occasional tailor will praise to the skies stuff I consider tissue paper.

 

If you're lazy, you can still get pretty close just by checking to see if it's sold by Lesser's.

 

Road test them all?

Why don't you do a test and have three suits made in navy using each of three cloth merchants?

Seriously, they're all excellent cloths, and you won't go wrong with any of them.

 

I have to second Mark's suggestion for the three suit trial run.
While you're at it, you may as well make one the Scabal 50% 220 50% cashmere cloth. It's my understanding that you could get into one of those for a cool 18-20K.

 

Finally, the very best available cloth (in my opinion) is not made by any of these companies, and is (for the most part) not available through any MTM program from any company.

Manton, could you, please, share the names of the companies making this cloth?

Andrey

P.S.: Perhaps you already did this, but somehow I missed it -- sorry if this the case.

 

Well, it doesn't work that way. For one thing, Oxxford does not make any of its own cloth. The same corporate parent owns H&S, but that is not the same thing. Second, even H&S is a merchant, not a weaver, so most of what it sells it does not make. Though I understand that they are starting to weave more of their own stuff, out of Chile. Third, any company with a huge line like H&S is going to have some misfires. It would be lovely if we could just trust the entire line to be perfect accross the board, but that's not the real world. Finally, the very best available cloth (in my opinion) is not made by any of these companies, and is (for the most part) not available through any MTM program from any company. MTM is subject to certain economic pressures that make using really high quality cloth that is run off in limited lengths untenable.

Actually, I'de like to make a slight correction. I was curious about HnS weaving out of the british Isles, and caught up with someone in their employ (as someone who has some HnS books on his shelf) and queried them.

Yes HnS and Oxxford are owned by the same company, but HnS is still having their goods woven in England and Scotland. The parent company did aquire a South American company that was known for their linen fabric production, and has hence began production of woolens. That company is actually producing under their own name, and it's decent for the cost. I do not sell it, on the other hand, though it is offered through my custom house in their seasonal books. I was told that HnS would have a difficult time relocating production, as it would absolutely destroy their name and sellability. Marketing suicide as it were. If this is 100% true, I'm not sure. I have no reason to believe otherwise at this point.

As for the hand? Well, HnS has a definite feel that is a touch heavier than most Italian (and even some English goods) out there. The reason for this is mostly regional. Simply put, it is English cloth. English weavers, regardless of the quality, will more then likely produce a heavier cloth than the Italians, more then likely attributed to the style of production, and the climate of the area. If you take a swatch of HnS in 120's, and put it next to say... Zegna's 120's, it's going to feel completely differently. I have, on the other hand, discovered no difference in the final product. All the cloth mentioned in this thread is of high quality (and Scabal even offers cloth of absurd luxury standards, and to a point so does HnS... I don't know much on Eton).

Hope that helps!

 

Hmmm. The president of H&S told me (and some others) last year that they were beginning to set up mills in Chile, in part as a hedge against the (inevitable) decline and disappearance of English sources. He said that the current production was small, but it could grow. Certainly, I realize that the vast majority of what they sell today is still British.

 

Holland & Sherry.

 

Manton, could you, please, share the names of the companies making this cloth?

For my money:

Lesser: all books, from the Superfine Tropicals (8/9 ounce) to the 16 ounce worsteds, are terrific quality. Designwise, you may not find what you are looking for, however.

Smith Woolens: also great for worsteds, though they have a heavier emphasis on Supers that don't interest me. The Botany and Steadfast books are excellent. I also like the flannels book, though oddly, it has very few flannels in it. Gilt Edge (or Gilt Twist) is not bad for a super lightweight summer cloth, but Lesser Superfine Tropicals wears better. However, Gilt Edge has some nicer designs.

J&J Minnis: The fresco and flannel books are the best of their respective kinds, hands down. Rangoon is a great tropical book. Some say it is the same stuff as Lesser Superfine, but it is marked as 8 ounce, not 8/9, and the weave definitely feels tighter to me. Also, it has several designs that Lesser lacks.

Harrisons: Great flannel book; not quite up to the Minnis quality in most cases, but superior designs and colors in several instances. Thistle is a killer worsted book, as is Fine Classics. I am not a fan of Grand or Premier Cru: too much emphasis on high count fibers and not enough wool in the yarns to give the cloth sufficient body. Nice designs, I got sucked in once, but never again.

For suitings, those are the books I go back to again and again. I also grab the odd piece of Woodehouse or Hield or Hunt & Winterbotham when they surface in NY cloth stores.

 

I would suggest a couple of additions to Manton's list:

For flannels, my absolute fave is Fox.

For tweeds, W. Bill.

Otherwise, and especially for worsted suitings, I think Manton's list is pretty definitive.

 

For flannels, my absolute fave is Fox.

Everything in the Minnis book is made by Fox. Not sure about the Harrison's book. There are no Fox books circulating in New York, but if you write to them they will send you cuttings of what they have on hand, glued to black crepe paper. It's mostly solids, as I recall. Also, a friend who is in frequent contact with Fox was told that they no longer intend to maintain a stocklist. Henceforth, they are only going to weave for others.

For tweeds, W. Bill.

Certainly. I have so little occasion to wear tweed, and more than enough tweed in my closet to cover those occasions, that I don't pay much attention to tweed these days.

 

Hmmm. The president of H&S told me (and some others) last year that they were beginning to set up mills in Chile, in part as a hedge against the (inevitable) decline and disappearance of English sources. He said that the current production was small, but it could grow. Certainly, I realize that the vast majority of what they sell today is still British.

I was under that impression as well... Their parent company, though, works in strange... strange ways. I do business with said company, they are OK to work with, but they certainly massive.

When I was pushing for information, the only thing that came up was their new Chilean company... which i'm pretty sure goes by the name of Crosseville, and so far, they seem to be producing under that name.

Also, I know that HnS utilizes mills in Scotland as well. I don't know if this is for specefic production purposes, or that they produce the same fineness of fabric that their English ones do. Regardless, I'm pretty sure it's cheaper to produce outside of England, whether it be Scotland OR Chile.

Hell, I could be dead wrong, and all information given to me completely false. Which would upset me... I'm pretty weird about having stuff produced where I want it produced when I sell it, but if they are producing offshore, and the quality does not change, I don't think I'll have too much to gripe about.

Also, Manton, a customer of mine who lurks around on AAAC (also the same customer who turned me on to the forum) has said your posts are a notorious good read. He is quite right in my opinion.

Duncan

 

Everything in the Minnis book is made by Fox. Not sure about the Harrison's book. There are no Fox books circulating in New York, but if you write to them they will send you cuttings of what they have on hand, glued to black crepe paper. It's mostly solids, as I recall. Also, a friend who is in frequent contact with Fox was told that they no longer intend to maintain a stocklist. Henceforth, they are only going to weave for others.

Interesting. I have had some cloth direct from Fox in the past, which I've always been thrilled with. I'm having some trousers made up at the moment from a flannel in the Minnis book, but it hadn't realized it was also made by Fox.

Duncan - you have a great looking website. I particularly like the photograph on your homepage.

 

Also, a friend who is in frequent contact with Fox was told that they no longer intend to maintain a stocklist. Henceforth, they are only going to weave for others.

I wonder who is going to pick up their lightweight flannel range? Not that anyone really needs such an animal, but theirs are so lovely that I occasionally drool over the thought of having a suit made from it. When all the basics are firmly covered and I have occasion to go out for quiet evening dates in the spring (ha!).

 

Interesting. I have had some cloth direct from Fox in the past, which I've always been thrilled with. I'm having some trousers made up at the moment from a flannel in the Minnis book, but it hadn't realized it was also made by Fox.

Duncan - you have a great looking website. I particularly like the photograph on your homepage.

Oh thats me. My boss is cheap and learned that I'de do a three hour photoshoot for a pastrami on rye and a coke.

Duncan

 

There is no infallible way to gauge the quality of cloth, I don't think. Reputation is not bad, but imperfect. Learning how good cloth "feels" and responds to certain stresses is vital. Tailors' judgements can also be useful. There are tailors who I know have an excellent appreciation for cloth, and also direct experience in working with it. But even this is not infallible, as the occasional tailor will praise to the skies stuff I consider tissue paper.

The incorrect double negative aside, and with all due respect which, BTW, is enormous, I would heartily disagree with the intended meaning of your first sentence. The study of cloth is both science and art. The vast majority of artisans consider solely the art. This is fallible. The vast majority of weavers are attuned, in the main, to the science. That is fallible. Having said that, there are a few practitioners out here who recognize the duality of the matter and, given the time and necessary tools, are perfectly capable of gauging the quality of cloth.
As to your final thought, the fallacy of your opinion lies in its subjectivity. Try the sensuous feel of a gossamer wind which is silk chiffon. What - maybe a half-ounce per yard? Or the buttery Alumo 200's end-on-end at less than 3 ounces. There are some - a very few - 6.5oz tropicals which tailor like a dream. Your evident predilection towards 11oz-13oz cloths may foster a distaste for lightweight cloths; your objectivity as a renouned author should preclude such a narrow focus.

If you're lazy, you can still get pretty close just by checking to see if it's sold by Lesser's.

Usually so.

I was under that impression as well... Their parent company, though, works in strange... strange ways. I do business with said company, they are OK to work with, but they certainly massive.

I take exception to the view stated earlier in this thread that H&S retains complete independence from Oxxford. Individualized Apparel Group, Oxxford's parent, didn't purchase the firm just to let it sally forth without recognizing the importance of its new owners. I've never been a fan of vertical integration, but I must admit that Mr. Hays is the absolute master of that art in this field. He is not, however, known for letting his acquisitions ignore the services they can offer towards improving the bottom line of IAG as a whole. Were he to do so he would be a fool - and the man is no fool!

Also, Manton, a customer of mine who lurks around on AAAC (also the same customer who turned me on to the forum) has said your posts are a notorious good read. He is quite right in my opinion.
Duncan

Well ... I'd agree with your opinion and certainly second the notorious part. :devil:

 

The incorrect double negative aside, and with all due respect which, BTW, is enormous, I would heartily disagree with the intended meaning of your first sentence. The study of cloth is both science and art. The vast majority of artisans consider solely the art. This is fallible. The vast majority of weavers are attuned, in the main, to the science. That is fallible. Having said that, there are a few practitioners out here who recognize the duality of the matter and, given the time and necessary tools, are perfectly capable of gauging the quality of cloth.

As frequently happens, I don't really know what you're trying to say. I will restate my point in, hopefully, clearer terms.

Leaving aside shirtings, because this thread is about suitings, the question was, How can a consumer judge cloth quality? The consumer has three primary inputs to go by: 1) swatches; or, if he is lucky, a full bolt that the tailor has on hand; or if he is really lucky, a tailored garment that the tailor has made for another customer that is still in the shop; 2) The reputation of the cloth merchant; 3) The opinion of the tailor, assuming he has worked the same cloth in the past. None of this is infallible. I suppose the client can ask for a cutting, and take it to "the lab" for analysis. But for most of us this is impractical, and we are left with the more subjective methods discussed above.

There are some - a very few - 6.5oz tropicals which tailor like a dream.

Do please name them. I have an open mind and a low tolerance for Northeastern summers. I would be quite happy to learn of well-draping, long-lasting 6.5 ounce tropicals.

 

Do please name them. I have an open mind and a low tolerance for Northeastern summers. I would be quite happy to learn of well-draping, long-lasting 6.5 ounce tropicals.

You can sign me up as well.