interesting question...I personally look at cops as a necessary evil...I don't really like alot of them, but society would go haywire without them...there are two sides to the coin here...first off, nearly every cop I've ever known has had some sort of weird short man's complex (even if they were tall)...just a serious axe to grind with the world at large, now that's not to say that I havent encountered a few very cool cops aswell...but to give you an idea, I used to work in a grocery store when I was in HS, and one of the lesser managers was studying to be a cop, he'd actually like try and set employees up so that he could "bust them"...same goes for this dorky kid who used to be a security guard at the hospital where I work...I mean, the dude was always running around with a pissed off look on his face, he must have pumped iron every waking hour that he wasnt at the police academy and at work, he would actually walk around the parking garage issuing fake parking tickets and looking in people's car windows for "contraband", and don't get me started on his "partner" who used to show up to work wearing a kevlar flak (sp?) jacket...so this is the mindset we're dealing with...at the same time, you have to think that these guys do have to deal with some volitile nutbags, we've all heard the stories of the cop who was shot dead during a routine traffic stop or whatever...so you can't hardly blame some of them for taking a "taze first ask questions later" attitude..I'm not really familiar with the case of the Polish man, but it seems like there (aswell as with the other two cases you mentioned), the cops overreacted...but at the same time, I've heard stories from a cop who broke up a domestic violence case where the guy was slicing his wife up with a broken bottle, only to have the wife attack him with the same bottle while he was trying to subdue the husband...so I suppose as a cop, you never know who the whack-a-doo is who's going to become a threat to your life...not saying it's right, and I'm definately not siding witht he cops, but I can kind of understand why they might have over-reacted so much...it seems to me that it was probably just good old fashioned fear...

 

I watched both the videos. Did those two guys ever scream like little biatches! Also, from what I could see, as much as they were shouting they were being compliant, they were not. I think police need to be monitored for abuse, but I also think we as a society often put them into almost impossible circumstances. For instance, right now in Phoenix, the airport police are coming under fire for the death of a woman. Her family was shipping her off to Tucson to a jet-set detox place. They put her on a plane alone from NYC, she was wasted, and going irate in Sky Harbour airport. She was handcuffed to a bench or chair and managed to hang herself some how. The family is launching a law suit saying the Phoenix airport police should not have left her alone due to her fragile state of mind. Gee, maybe the people that supposedly loved her should of thought about something like this before they shipped off a spoiled NYC brat for a solo flight to a detox. Maybe a little family company on the flight would have stopped this? Nah, it's all the cops fault.

 

Anyone in law enforcement in the U.S. will tell you that the escalation procedures they use in restraining someone places tasering them as less dangerous to physically wrestling them to the ground because there is historically less injury done to both the cops and the suspect.

That's just the way it is. If we don't like it we can vote for new sheriffs and police chiefs (or mayors who appoint the chief) based upon their stance on tasering.

If you know any cops (actually on the street) in a high-crime area ask them if they think the taser has saved lives (on both sides) or not.

 

.......

Should police have taser guns? Should they be allowed to use them on non-violent individuals? Is the misuse of taser guns turning into the newest form of police brutality?[/B]

Taser are a great invention, but like all great inventions, they fall into the hands of total morons as well as the honest decent cop's!

Those cops in BC should stripped of their badge and sent of to work as garbage collectors.
They took the cheap, lazy, easy way out without even trying, without even thinking.
Those are the clowns that make all cops look bad!!

The minute they saw the state of that man, they should have had the foresight to know the risks of using a taser on him increased several fold. But clearly they can't or didn't bother to think before using it.

There will always be a few rogue cops that will throw their weight around senselessly, tasers just make it easier for those few who find it empowering! It is just to bad the screening process did not catch those loose cannon cops sooner, or that his partners did not catch on to the signs and turn them in as "high risks" sooner.

 

Anyone in law enforcement in the U.S. will tell you that the escalation procedures they use in restraining someone places tasering them as less dangerous to physically wrestling them to the ground because there is historically less injury done to both the cops and the suspect............

If you know any cops (actually on the street) in a high-crime area ask them if they think the taser has saved lives (on both sides) or not.

I have watched cops take people down just by doing the thumb and ear twist, I have watched cops trip up a guy with their night stick and then hold him down for a few seconds until he realizes the game is done and stops.

To just walk up and taser everyone, for any infraction is over the top.
The taser was designed to take down the big strapping bully would not go down without a fight. I don't recall where, but some CDN cops killed an unarmed woman, 98 pounds when wet with a taser. A cop should have known the risk was too with her. Maybe tasers need to come with an A and B setting, many just take the 50,000 volt hit and bounce back like the drunken mad man that will ikely enjoy hurting 6 cops on the way down

Tasers can save lives when used well, but they are not a blanket response to anyone who says no to a cop!! A cop needs to know when it is time for the stick, the taser, a bullet in the chest, or to use his brain, skill and logic in diffusing a given situation.

Don't get me wrong, I am very far from being a "cop hater",
this is a "new" tool for most cops and is being used badly a litle too often.

 

interesting question...I personally look at cops as a necessary evil...I don't really like alot of them, but society would go haywire without them...there are two sides to the coin here...first off, nearly every cop I've ever known has had some sort of weird short man's complex (even if they were tall)...just a serious axe to grind with the world at large, now that's not to say that I havent encountered a few very cool cops aswell...but to give you an idea, I used to work in a grocery store when I was in HS, and one of the lesser managers was studying to be a cop, he'd actually like try and set employees up so that he could "bust them"...same goes for this dorky kid who used to be a security guard at the hospital where I work...I mean, the dude was always running around with a pissed off look on his face, he must have pumped iron every waking hour that he wasnt at the police academy and at work, he would actually walk around the parking garage issuing fake parking tickets and looking in people's car windows for "contraband", and don't get me started on his "partner" who used to show up to work wearing a kevlar flak (sp?) jacket...so this is the mindset we're dealing with...at the same time, you have to think that these guys do have to deal with some volitile nutbags, we've all heard the stories of the cop who was shot dead during a routine traffic stop or whatever...so you can't hardly blame some of them for taking a "taze first ask questions later" attitude..I'm not really familiar with the case of the Polish man, but it seems like there (aswell as with the other two cases you mentioned), the cops overreacted...but at the same time, I've heard stories from a cop who broke up a domestic violence case where the guy was slicing his wife up with a broken bottle, only to have the wife attack him with the same bottle while he was trying to subdue the husband...so I suppose as a cop, you never know who the whack-a-doo is who's going to become a threat to your life...not saying it's right, and I'm definately not siding witht he cops, but I can kind of understand why they might have over-reacted so much...it seems to me that it was probably just good old fashioned fear...

Read Nietzsche on "The Will to Power". It will tell you almost everything you need to know about cops and why they become cops. "To Serve and Protect" becomes a punchline.

 

Read Nietzsche on "The Will to Power". It will tell you almost everything you need to know about cops and why they become cops. "To Serve and Protect" becomes a punchline.

What does he say about firemen?

My Brother-in-Law is a cop and very fine person. I'll be pheasant hunting in Iowa next week with a cop who's another outstanding guy. Most cops I've known have been fine. I can think of an incident in the Orange County airport in July where I overindulged in free adult beverages in first class and probably should have been arrested when I reacted to some fool about lost luggage - but was not - even though I was mouthing off to the cops a bit (when I sobered up I was amazed at their restraint). Most cops that have ever pulled me over or aside were pretty damn decent and cut me slack. I've never met one that was on any kind of power trip or had a "short man" complex. I'm sure they're out there, but by and large I respect cops for all the crap and scum they have to deal with. The things they see and deal with are appalling and heart breaking - abandoned children, suicides, domestic disputes, homicides, vehicle accidents with blood/gore/dismemberment/charred bodies, and then just your avergage low lifes - very stressful.

I like 'em and wouldn't trust the opinion of a syphillitic madman.

 

Paraphrasing Shakespeare, "methinks they protest too much!" If a subject fails to cooperate, fails to comply with instructions issued by a law enforcement officer and they get tased, so be it...they brought it on themselves. In most departments, officers carrying such equipment, are required to experience the effects of such use of force options, as part of their training and certification to carry said equipment. During my career, I was beaten with a nightstick, sprayed with tear gas and pepper spray, and tased on multiple occassions, all in the name of training so that I had use of force options available, less than using my firearm, to quell the vigor of bad actors who wanted to prove how tough they were. Save your sympathies for those who deserve them!

 

PIf a subject fails to cooperate... they get tased,

This is the problem, some law enforcement officers think a taser is a cattle prod, and are willing to recklessly use it on non-violent individuals.

There was one particularly disturbing story on CBC radio the other day that I'll narrate as best I can remember (I looked and I can't find a written article for it.) A 36 year old man, weighing about 100 pounds, with multiple sclerosis who lived independently had a long history of getting evicted from apartments because he would allow homeless people into his apartment on cold nights as he felt sorry for them. Understandably, the landlords weren't happy about this and the risks it posed to other tenants, so they proceeded with evictions. In his last eviction, the police came to have him removed, and entered his apartment while he was sleeping. The officers pulled the blanket off him (he was naked underneath) and TASED HIM TO WAKE HIM UP.

After they told him to get dressed, they decided to take him down to the police station (I'm not entirely sure what for, possibly trespassing since he ignored the eviction order.) There they proceeded to process him and insisted he undergo a strip search, he complained saying it was unnecesary since they found him naked and asleep, and saw him get dressed. When he complained and argued, they proceeded to tase him again inside the police station. Finally when he promised to comply with the strip search, he was getting up (he claims he has trouble getting up quickly because he suffers from MS), the police officers tased him again for not standing up and undressing fast enough. He complained of severe pain, and the police refused to let him seek treatment until they released him several hours later. He went straight to the ER where he was diagnosed with second degree burns across his chest from the repeated tasings.

He's now launched a lawsuit against the city (which particular city in Canada it was escapes me.) But surely no sensible officer can justify tasing a 100 pound unarmed non-violent suspect in custody for "failing to cooperate" in these circumstances.

Police would never dream of punching or kicking someone under such circumstances, but they're free to tase people, which can inflict second degree burns or kill people. In this case, it was beyond reckless, this is police brutality. When people can get hospitalized or killed over such minor things, than the people need to protest.

I'm not against cops, and I'm not necessarily against tasers... but I AM against cops being allowed to use tasers on non-violent suspects. It should have the similar standards of use as any other potentially deadly weapon.

 

I've watched the "Don't taze me, bro" video a few times and am amused and dismayed by people who take offense to the police use of a taser in such an instance. Amused because I know most of those same critics wouldn't hesitate to taser a person who was fighting them, if they thought it would stop the fight. Dismayed because some of those critics are either ignorant of the world or are just cop haters looking to take another anonymous shot from their soft seat cushion. Officers are not paid to slug it out with offenders if there is another choice. There is no requirement that they take the first blow and only strike back when struck, or struggle for needless minutes trying to get someone handcuffed when an alternative is at hand. I can tell you, it is much harder than it looks to handcuff an unwilling subject, at least without someone getting hurt. If a subject is resistant, combative or by his words and actions (such as 'fighting stance') an officer believes he is going to resist, by all means, taser or spray him. The law allows it as a less-than-lethal application of force for good reason: it minimized injuries. I've never tasered anyone because I've been off the streets too long, before tasers became available. But I have OCed a number of people and I did so without qualm or regret. It is that many more fights I didn't have to fight, that many more injuries I didn't sustain, and that many more times I got to go home to my family after another 'tough day at the office.'

None of this is meant to condone unlawful or abusive use of a taser by an officer. In those instances where an officer does use a taser without cause or justification, by all means, fire him, then charge him with assault if probable cause exists. But by far, tasers are a useful alternative to 'hands on' arrest of a subject and offer the best chance for everyone - officer, subject and anyone nearby - to avoid injury and go home in one piece that night.

T3G

 

I know plenty of cops that are "decent fellows" to go hunting and fishing and coke and joke with. None of them I would be comfortable with knowing when to use an electrified fishhook on me. "To Serve and Protect" is the very last thing on any of these guys minds as they go throughout their day. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's a fact of life. Taser guns are being misused left and right with little restraint and even less thought. And nobody in charge cares. It's all big joke. And eagle2250 the people you are going on about are not the people we're talking about unless, like some of your cohorts, you enjoy employing undue force. Electricity is dangerous no matter how you cut it. Applying 100,000 volts at 3 to 4 amps is no slight matter and these morons are treating it like it's the new form of pepper spray. It's another tool to intimidate people and they're taking advantage of it even though it means loss of life. But hey like your buddies say better tried by 12 than carried by 6 right?

 

Geez, omairp, you are making out cops in Canada to be rather jack-booted thugs. Not my memory of them in my first 25 years of life, which I spent growing up in Canada.

 

Applying 100,000 volts at 3 to 4 amps is no slight matter and these morons are treating it like it's the new form of pepper spray.

From the Taser website:

"Peak loaded voltage: 1,200 V, avg. voltage over duration of
main phase 400 V, avg. over full phase 350 V, avg. over one
second 0.76 V.
Current: 2.1 mA average" [mA is a milliamp, or 1/1,000th of an amp]​

If, Nicesuit, you would like to ponder the above information for a while, and then take a few moments for self-reflection about your post, perhaps you will reconsider who the real "moron" is.​

Thank you.
T3G​

 

I know plenty of cops that are "decent fellows" to go hunting and fishing and coke and joke with. None of them I would be comfortable with knowing when to use an electrified fishhook on me. "To Serve and Protect" is the very last thing on any of these guys minds as they go throughout their day. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's a fact of life. Taser guns are being misused left and right with little restraint and even less thought. And nobody in charge cares. It's all big joke. And eagle2250 the people you are going on about are not the people we're talking about unless, like some of your cohorts, you enjoy employing undue force. Electricity is dangerous no matter how you cut it. Applying 100,000 volts at 3 to 4 amps is no slight matter and these morons are treating it like it's the new form of pepper spray. It's another tool to intimidate people and they're taking advantage of it even though it means loss of life. But hey like your buddies say better tried by 12 than carried by 6 right?

Hmm, misinformation (what we used to call "lies") about the tazer and a little anti-gun jargon. Do we think someone has an agenda?

 

Have you ever gone on a "ride-along"? I'm not trying to start an argument. Just for the purpose of explanation, most major police/sheriff depts have a community outreach program where various projects to inform the community of what they do exits. One is the "ride-along" program where you are in the car, next to the officer, for a full shift. I suggest a Friday or Saturday night if you want a decent experience. You will eat lunch with him, you will be behind him when he answers normal calls. He'll drop you on a street corner and call someone else to pick you up if there's danger in the air - so nothing to really worry about in that area.

It opened up a whole new concept called "reality" to me when i did it (twice, thank you.) I give the cops more benefit of the doubt now than i did before from my comfortable armchair playing Monday morning quarterback (not saying you're doing this, but it's certainly what I did.)

If you haven't, then you really need to see both sides of the equation before you can judge. Just my opinion, of course.

I know plenty of cops that are "decent fellows" to go hunting and fishing and coke and joke with. None of them I would be comfortable with knowing when to use an electrified fishhook on me. "To Serve and Protect" is the very last thing on any of these guys minds as they go throughout their day. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's a fact of life. Taser guns are being misused left and right with little restraint and even less thought. And nobody in charge cares. It's all big joke. And eagle2250 the people you are going on about are not the people we're talking about unless, like some of your cohorts, you enjoy employing undue force. Electricity is dangerous no matter how you cut it. Applying 100,000 volts at 3 to 4 amps is no slight matter and these morons are treating it like it's the new form of pepper spray. It's another tool to intimidate people and they're taking advantage of it even though it means loss of life. But hey like your buddies say better tried by 12 than carried by 6 right?

 

Do the officers who use tasers have to first have them used on themselves? I know that they do this with pepper spray during training. I have friends who are cops, but none of their departments use tasers.

 

Do the officers who use tasers have to first have them used on themselves? I know that they do this with pepper spray during training. I have friends who are cops, but none of their departments use tasers.

Many states they do.

Being a good cop is like being a good motorcyclist: you need to approach it with a sense of paranoia. If you assume that everyone you come into contact with may want to try to do you harm, you will be more careful and probably make it home to see your family. You will also not take any more risks than necessary.

In short, the rule of thumb is to not behave in the manner that would get you tased. A simple, "Yes sir, I am complying with you," followed by actual compliance is in order. If you think you're being treated unfairly, there's a time and place to address it.

 

I watched both the videos. Did those two guys ever scream like little biatches!

We can always count on you for a little compassion. What always amazes me is just how little compassion we can count on from you.

 

Local news has had two Taser stories this past week, in Madison a cop accidentally shot another cop w/ a Taser and in Green Bay a school liason shot the janitor, whoops & double whoops!

Brian

 

Let me share an interesting bit of history. The 158 grain .38 Special, actually a mere .36 caliber descended from that blackpowder bore was the most widely used police cartridge in the USA and several other countries along with it's british cousin the .38-200 or .38 Smith and Wesson with similar 158 grain load for most of the 20th century. These rounds came after a period of established big bore stopping rounds of @ .45 caliber. Why? the great handgunner Ed McGivern demonstrated a .38 spl is the maximum power a user can effectively shoot rapid fire with precision and the easiest to train people with. What also found favour, is the little known belief by police agencies a less lethal, yet more controllable round was preferable, given the all to common event of officers being shot with their own weapons or rounds penetrating walls. Inevitably, the advent of car bandits brought on the need for penetrating rounds starting with the .357 magnum. Today even restricted to handguns, people on both sides of the law face weapons and cartridges of far greater lethality. The object of any police weapon; firearm, nightstick, mace or stun gun is TO STOP the individual from resisting or posing a threat. It is not to kill. I can easilly kill you with a fractured skull from a billy club or sap. This now enters the realm of 'abuse under the colour of authority.' You can do that with your mouth, which a former co worker did to me shortly after graduating from the academy. He's back at our old job, now in Loss Protection instead of building materials. Believe it or not, not all police departments are filled with Nietzche Nightmares.

 

Do the officers who use tasers have to first have them used on themselves?

Experiencing the effects of the Taser is part of the training and certification process.

 

Geez, omairp, you are making out cops in Canada to be rather jack-booted thugs. Not my memory of them in my first 25 years of life, which I spent growing up in Canada.

I'm not suggesting that all cops are thugs, they certainly aren't, and that has never been my experience. These are all fairly recent reports that have been in the news here. I'm just alarmed by the seeming lack of accountability and regulations around the usage of this dangerous and potentially deadly weapon, in both Canada and the US.

People keep trying to write this off "thats what people get for not complying" which is silly. A student fails to produce photo id in a campus computer lab and is essentially electrocuted by the police (thankfully, not fatally in this case.) If the same officers decided to punch this guy in the face for failing to show ID, the officer would be on trial for assault, but instead he shocked him with thousands of volts of electricity with little repercussions. Judging by the students' reaction, the electric shock is far more painful than being punched could ever be. That seems soooo wrong to me.

As well this vagueness about what warrants the use of a taser makes it very easy for rampant abuse. In some jurisdictions it seems that simply not cooperating, even if they don't pose a physical threat warrants being attacked with a stun gun. If law enforcement officers are going to be given a dangerous weapon, they need to be fully accountable for how its used. There seems to be this perception that being attacked with a stun gun is not such a big deal... but I'm guessing the numerous people who have been killed or hospitalized by injuries from stun guns would beg to differ.

I think its time that law enforcement agencies established stringent standards and accountability for the usage of stun guns similar to the usage of other potentially deadly weapons or stopped using them altogether.

 

We can always count on you for a little compassion. What always amazes me is just how little compassion we can count on from you.

rip:

When you have comforted literally hundreds of people on their actual death bed, grieved with their families, been told by a terminal 17 girl that in her head you were the date for the prom she will not live to go to, you will have a right to comment on my compassion. Until then you can just suck me right off until I'm dry. How's that for you? And go report me buddy, you just did a totally unprovoked insult and I'll report your narrow arse right back.

The young, strong, able bodied men in those two videos were being non-compliant with the police and they screamed like little girls when they got tazed.

 

..."To Serve and Protect" is the very last thing on any of these guys minds as they go throughout their day. Taser guns are being misused left and right with little restraint and even less thought. And nobody in charge cares. It's all big joke. And eagle2250 the people you are going on about are not the people we're talking about unless, like some of your cohorts, you enjoy employing undue force.

Over a 32 year period of serving "the public interest", both in the military and in law enforcement, I have been wounded by shrapnel, been shot at, had my jaw broken, had my left shoulder twisted out of joint, tearing loose much of the connective tissue, and incurred a litany of other cuts and bruises...at the hands of these folks you accuse the police of persecuting...and my experience is by no means unique. Somehow I don't see it as the guys I was working with were the ones using excessive force! Nicesuit, why don't you try working a tour or two out on the street? I'll ride with you...it might be fun to watch.

 

One thing that is being overlooked is that the Taser is not really a nonlethal weapon. We have seen that it causes death in a nontrivial number of cases. Consequently, its use is justified only in circumstances in which deadly force is justified.

I support the police, and my experience with law enforcement personnel has been almost uniformly positive. The same is true of the interactions I've observed between my clients with severe mental illnesses and law enforcement personnel. Nevertheless, the attitude that I keep seeing in this thread that anyone who defies or pisses off a cop deserves whatever they get is very disturbing.