Shoulder dimples will form if you raise your arms side way on a perfect fitted jacket. However, if the dimple is present when you rest your arm, there are many possible causes of that, and it all depends on how that jacket fit your body and how your body reacts to the jacket.

IMO, a perfect fit is somewhat subjective. It all depends on how the wearer defines his ideal fit: he might be looking at English strong shoulder cut, American soft tailoring cut, or Italian Roman or Neapolitan cuts. These different cuts fit differently, and you have to apply different criteria for these cuts to determine a perfect fit.

In short, what is your definition of a "perfect fit"? Do you envision that you will be able to move arms around without dimples? no shoulder pad bulge? no raised quarters? or what not. What is the criteria for a jacket to meet so you can deem it as a "perfect fit"?

 

Depends upon how one defines perfect. Over the years, I've heard many different authorities describe the "perfect fit." And the only thing that is certain is that this changes with fashion, and different authorities' definitions are often mutually exclusive.

For example, the insistence that a perfectly fitting shoulder is one in which the shoulder of the jacket's shoulder aligns with the top of the shoulder joint. (Your so-called natural shoulder.) Well, if that is the widest point of your torso it's close to where it needs to be but, if like me and many men, the circumference of your chest and upper arm results in you upper arm being a good deal further outboard, such an alignment will virtually guaranty dimples. And the closer the fit, the more defined they will be. The shoulder of the jacket needs to extend further than beyond the end of the shoulder joint.

The two other main culprits are the sleevehead being cut too small, and the armhole too low. A full enough sleevehead and high armhole (I.e., one that fits under the arm rather than down on the upper arm.) are also required to eliminate or at least minimize dimples. And an ample fit throughout the jacket helps ease any pulling of the sort that can also contribute.

So the answer to your question is that as an absolute it is always possible to get perfectly fitting shoulders if one has access to a good tailor to make your clothes, otherwise you're subject to the whims of fashion and the individual maker which may, or may not, suit your particular physique.

 

I can imagine if you're talking about OTR in current state of trend. Which stores have you gone to?

Even cheap MTM from local tailors can give you better fit than OTR stuff.

EDIT: I must clarify that local tailors do not include your neighborhood Indochino

 

^ it depends on the OTR and the cheap MTM.

Put in the search terms made to measure and "feedback" and you'll see any number of atrocious examples.

Besides fit, which is obviously paramount, the construction of the garment and its overall balance and design can influence how the shoulders rest.

 

Alas, "a perfect fit," like perfection itself is a constantly moving target, the achievement of which is a momentary reality and more often an illusion altogether! Understand that the real thrill is in the quest and not usually in reaching one's destination.

 

I agree with others who say "perfect" fit is relative, but I'm optimistic that, sometimes with hard sleuthing, you can get something you like. But focusing specific on the issue of shoulder dimples, IMO that's most often associated with an OTR jacket that's too big. Combined with what is typically a relatively padded shoulder, you basically have a shelf that extends too far off the natural shoulder. The sleeve, then draped from this sartorially cantilevered precipice, when it finally hits the upper arm, is given enough resistance to create the aforementioned dimple.

So first, starting simply, perhaps look at sizing down jackets. This might introduce unforeseen additional considerations, but along with jacket length, for me shoulder fit is of paramount importance in OTR. Yea, some folks will be blessed (sarcastic) with overly sloping or, conversely, straight, shoulders, but I think it's fewer than people imagine. I think it's mostly mis-sized jackets.

 

A perfect shoulder is one that allows the sleeve to hang cleanly and looks balanced with the head. Something a wide, extended shoulder is the right choice, like it was on Cary Grant. Divots don't necessarily need to happen with wide shoulders if the sleeve is properly fitted. Wide shoulders do not cause divots; it's a narrow sleeve that does.

 

A perfect shoulder is one that allows the sleeve to hang cleanly and looks balanced with the head. Something a wide, extended shoulder is the right choice, like it was on Cary Grant. Divots don't necessarily need to happen with wide shoulders if the sleeve is properly fitted. Wide shoulders do not cause divots; it's a narrow sleeve that does.

 

A perfect shoulder is one that allows the sleeve to hang cleanly and looks balanced with the head.

Really important. That, what's quoted up there. Thank you, Matt. (Though I'm reluctant to quote him since I hate James Bond.)

It's the part about the head. Shoulders to a jacket must fit with the head, even if your real shoulders when shirtless don't, so don't go round taking off your shirt, much. Portion pics, being those where an outfit is shown in pieces and usually headless, can look okay. Then you see the full body shot and yowsa, it's all wrong. Don't do this. Obey your head. I know about this since I've got a biggly head. I must make the shoulders conform.I cannot compress my head. It really hurts. There are various ways to harmonize shoulder and head. But this is not a how-to post. It's a Call your attention to your head post. Another time for a how-to. Maybe.

 

A perfect shoulder is one that allows the sleeve to hang cleanly and looks balanced with the head. Something a wide, extended shoulder is the right choice, like it was on Cary Grant. Divots don't necessarily need to happen with wide shoulders if the sleeve is properly fitted. Wide shoulders do not cause divots; it's a narrow sleeve that does.

So wider sleeves are the solution?

Is it possible to find an OTR suit with high armholes and a roomy sleevehead? I have a suit that has low armholes AND a tight sleeve, a horrific combination in terms of comfort.

Bespokewrinkles posted his Steed garments, and I'd love something even remotely close to it.

 

So wider sleeves are the solution?

Is it possible to find an OTR suit with high armholes and a roomy sleevehead? I have a suit that has low armholes AND a tight sleeve, a horrific combination in terms of comfort.

Bespokewrinkles posted his Steed garments, and I'd love something even remotely close to it.

Wider upper sleeves in a wider armhole is the key to preventing divots. A wider sleeve that is fitted with a narrow armhole may still cause divots. Divots come from distorting the armhole, not from shoulders that are too wide, so it is key that the armhole fits properly.

 

A lot of good comments - but what we really need is a picture (or two) of what you are complaining about.

The rest is just conjecture.

A picture and a description of your upper body.

I get a dimple from OTR clothing because of the way I am built. 50 reg chest with a round back and large biceps.
My custom garments that I have made with a rope shoulder (showing my age), the sleeve caps lay perfect.

BUT - every body style will be different.

 

Wider upper sleeves in a wider armhole is the key to preventing divots. A wider sleeve that is fitted with a narrow armhole may still cause divots. Divots come from distorting the armhole, not from shoulders that are too wide, so it is key that the armhole fits properly.

My experience has been that a properly fitted smaller armhole combined with a larger sleavehead tends to minimize divots. But this assumes that the armhole isn't too tight, and is where it should be, under the armpit, and not halfway down the upper arm. And it's also necessary for the shoulder to be sufficiently broad, and properly shaped. (Most men's shoulders and back aren't shaped like wallboard, so why should a jacket's be?)

A lot of good comments - but what we really need is a picture (or two) of what you are complaining about.

The rest is just conjecture.

A picture and a description of your upper body.

I get a dimple from OTR clothing because of the way I am built. 50 reg chest with a round back and large biceps.
My custom garments that I have made with a rope shoulder (showing my age), the sleeve caps lay perfect.

BUT - every body style will be different.

I have a similar build (Thick chest and heavier arms.) and as I have jackets both with and without roped shoulders, I must suggest that roped shoulders are not the cause for the sleeve lacking divots, but rather the total breadth of the shoulder. I base this upon the fact that most of my rope-less shoulders also, thankfully, lack divots.

 

For those new to this sort of discussion, and who haven't dozed off, a high arm hole means a small arm hole and the sleeve head is where the sleeve meets and is sewn to this opening. They are both oval and of the exact same circumference, obviously, so what is quoted below is impossible.

My experience has been that a properly fitted smaller armhole combined with a larger sleavehead tends to minimize divots.

 

Divots come from distorting the armhole, not from shoulders that are too wide, so it is key that the armhole fits properly.

I don't know what a distorted armhole is and fit isn't usually associated with armhole size. It's a preference. No one has mentioned here, yet, that there is graduated padding in the sleeve itself, at the head. This has much to do with both style/appearance and divot disappearance. I should add that I don't care whether my jackets have divots or not. I currently have two jackets minus sleeves. They're in that pile over there. Going back on soon. After I rebuild/narrow the shoulders.

 

I don't know what a distorted armhole is and fit isn't usually associated with armhole size. It's a preference. No one has mentioned here, yet, that there is graduated padding in the sleeve itself, at the head. This has much to do with both style/appearance and divot disappearance. I should add that I don't care whether my jackets have divots or not. I currently have two jackets minus sleeves. They're in that pile over there. Going back on soon. After I rebuild/narrow the shoulders.

A distorted armhole is when the armhole is being bent out of shape. Sometimes the armhole will distort if it or the sleeve is too narrow. That is typically the case with wide shoulders, but I've seen it with narrow shoulders too. Sometime the armhole will distort if the chest is too tight. Divots mean there is a poor fit, though it is your preference whether or not you care your jacket fits wells.

 

For those new to this sort of discussion, and who haven't dozed off, a high arm hole means a small arm hole and the sleeve head is where the sleeve meets and is sewn to this opening. They are both oval and of the exact same circumference, obviously, so what is quoted below is impossible.

Being disputatious purely for the sake of being disputatious is both tiresome and trolling.

My terminology may be imprecise, I do not claim to be a tailor. Neither do I take apart hems to search for skin cells, or engage in any other D.I.Y. amateurishness. I simply wear and care for my clothing.

"Larger sleevehead." My understanding is that the sleevehead consists of the upper portion of the sleeve including the portion where it joins the shoulder. The armscye or amrhole is a largely internal structure slightly beyond the point at which the sleevehead meets the shoulder. The lining covers this structure inside the jacket and is what we see. It is this structure which hopefully fits higher into the armpit. Tapering, or in the case of the Spalla Camicia, gathering the sleevehead beyond the exact point where it meets the shoulder is not only not "impossible" it is the norm.

But my interest in the actual construction is limited to how it affects fit and consequently appearance. I have no wish to learn the details of how to make a jacket, or to take one apart. I do not delight in minutia out of whatever needs.

The intent of my use of the term "larger Sleevehead" and "smaller armhole" is to describe sleeveheads larger than other sleeveheads, not necessarily the armhole, though they often are, and armholes smaller than others, as those are the points relevant to the discussion. And please note that there is a difference between comparatively smaller armholes and tight armholes. In no place did I suggest tight armholes.

 

Being disputatious purely for the sake of being disputatious is both tiresome and trolling.

My terminology may be imprecise, I do not claim to be a tailor. Neither do I take apart hems to search for skin cells, or engage in any other D.I.Y. amateurishness. I simply wear and care for my clothing.

"Larger sleevehead." My understanding is that the sleevehead consists of the upper portion of the sleeve including the portion where it joins the shoulder. The armscye or amrhole is a largely internal structure slightly beyond the point at which the sleevehead meets the shoulder. The lining covers this structure inside the jacket and is what we see. It is this structure which hopefully fits higher into the armpit. Tapering, or in the case of the Spalla Camicia, gathering the sleevehead beyond the exact point where it meets the shoulder is not only not "impossible" it is the norm.

But my interest in the actual construction is limited to how it affects fit and consequently appearance. I have no wish to learn the details of how to make a jacket, or to take one apart. I do not delight in minutia out of whatever needs.

The intent of my use of the term "larger Sleevehead" and "smaller armhole" is to describe sleeveheads larger than other sleeveheads, not necessarily the armhole, though they often are, and armholes smaller than others, as those are the points relevant to the discussion. And please note that there is a difference between comparatively smaller armholes and tight armholes. In no place did I suggest tight armholes.

This is my understanding too. Roped sleeve heads have a sleeves that is larger than the armhole the sleeve attaches to. Those exist not just for looks but for comfort.

 

Being disputatious purely for the sake of being disputatious is both tiresome and trolling. My terminology may be imprecise, I do not claim to be a tailor. Neither do I take apart hems to search for skin cells, or engage in any other D.I.Y. amateurishness. I simply wear and care for my clothing.

Ouch.

I was pointing out a discrepancy, perhaps semantic, which you have now more fully explained and which I am happy to buy into. I have always looked forward to your posts. You keep the forum alive with frequent and thought provoking material. What happened this time?

 

I'm a body builder and firmly believe every man can find a suit that fits in the shoulders (unless you are a hunchback or something). You just need to size up and taper the waist. It can be pain if you want to buy a suit as the pants will be a size too big. I usually opt for more "athletic" build suits with a very large drop.

Sent from my SM-G928W8 using Tapatalk

 

I'm a body builder and firmly believe every man can find a suit that fits in the shoulders (unless you are a hunchback or something). You just need to size up and taper the waist. It can be pain if you want to buy a suit as the pants will be a size too big. I usually opt for more "athletic" build suits with a very large drop.

I too am a bodybuilder. Well I was at least and have been currently getting fat enjoying a new marriage and young son, lol! I agree 100% with what you've stated as I have had to learn to get very creative with sizing at times. I have had to go both up and down in size depending on brand and cut/style. The pants usually end up getting heavily tailored or fully recut as my chest is 52" and waist around a 40 now (use to be worse at a 36)I will say that my alterations tailor loves me for some strange reason, lol

 

Ouch.

I was pointing out a discrepancy, perhaps semantic, which you have now more fully explained and which I am happy to buy into. I have always looked forward to your posts. You keep the forum alive with frequent and thought provoking material. What happened this time?

Actually, one of my favorite parts of this Forum is that here, semantics matter. Pictures help obviously (worth lots of words), but the written descriptions of "fit" are IMO just as important as a visual appearance. So keep it up!

 

I was pointing out a discrepancy, perhaps semantic, which you have now more fully explained and which I am happy to buy into.

It isn't a semantic misunderstanding. I stated, "My experience has been that a properly fitted smaller armhole combined with a larger sleavehead tends to minimize divots" This statement is true for both possible interpretations; first that one sleavehead is larger than another, or armhole smaller than another, and as I subsequently explained also that the armhole can routinely be smaller than the sleevehead, contrary to your statement.

But this isn't about you or me being right or wrong. It's not about you or me at all. It's about attempting to provide accurate and relevant information. Misinformation presented as emphatic fact to someone without knowledge on the issue who is seeking information is rude at best, and abusive at worst. And the OP initiated a discussion on the fit of shoulders, soporific though you may find it, to which I felt I could contribute.

I have always looked forward to your posts. You keep the forum alive with frequent and thought provoking material.

Thank you.

 

Misinformation presented as emphatic fact to someone without knowledge on the issue who is seeking information is rude at best, and abusive at worst.

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For the love of god, please, let it go.

My criticism was hardly even a criticism and have written that your subsequent more fuller explanation makes everything okay. We are both 10 year veterans of this place and until your last two posts no one has ever accused me of giving bogus information, called me tiresome, abusive, rude, a troll and a do-it-yourself amateur. It least not all one thread. Plus disputatious, which I don't know what that means. I have no idea why my fairly mild words of my initial post have rankled you so. But I beg your forgiveness. I am sorry, really, even though I'm unsure what I'm sorry about. But I'm doing this so that you'll please stop saying lousy things about me. Ps. sleeve is spelled like that.