I think the high second button stance is annoying as hell. I almost always have the second button undone anyway, unless there is a wider than usual spacing between the buttons. I think that even if a shirt is the right size, some guys (including me) look and feel choked unless we undo the second button.

I posted a few weeks ago about this... why men keep the second button buttoned when they clearly look like they are choking. I don't know how many times I've thought to myself "If he [whatever guy] doesn't undo that second button, I 'm going to smack him... I feel choked just looking at him". I've never had too much chest hair or flesh showing with the top two buttons undone.

So that's my take on the problem.

 

I've never had too much chest hair or flesh showing with the top two buttons undone.

Just curious, Frank--Is that because you've hit upon just the right brand of RTW shirt (one with a consistent button stance)? Or because you wear only MTM shirts? My perception is that having an open collar (top button undone) is the limit for many (most?) men, and that leaving the first AND second buttons undone would create a plunging neckline that would be "too much" for most. Hence the frustration with the lack of a predictable standard. Leaving the top button undone becomes embarrassing when the second button is located way down at the navel. I wonder how you've solved the problem.

 

I like for the second button to be about 2 1/2 inches from the collar button. Almost all of my RTW shirts are close to this, give or take 1/4 inch or so. That allows for the open collar without it being too open, as in this pic taken at a reception I attended last summer.

https://img253.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan0006xp0.gif

Cruiser

 

I wear 2 buttons unbuttoned when going out an night and show chest hair. :icon_smile_big: In fact, chest hair looks better with 3 buttons undone.

 

Bogdanoff: Uh-oh. Are those gold chains I see? And that music--Donna Summer, perhaps? (And does anyone remember "Angel's Flight" pants?)

Cruiser: Compliments on the look. Relaxed but elegant.

 

The solution is an undershirt and tie or cravate.

 

The solution is an undershirt and tie or cravate.

Agreed.

For what it's worth, the NYT article indicates that at least three brands--BB, JCrew, and Bergdorf Goodman--now adhere to a "hybrid" standard of 3 1/2 inches from collar to second button.

At the opposite extreme: today's NYT coverage of the Prada spring menswear show in Milan. Judging from the photos, one's choices are (1) shirt completely unbuttoned, or (2) no shirt at all. Some of these man-boys look like they're runnin' Grandpappy's still up in the holler. So much for concerns about showing too much flesh.

I guess that's the difference between "fashion" and "style."

 

This has evolved. In the days when dress shirts were usually buttoned right up, the second button was quite low, and so leaving the top button undone looked very relaxed and was not really acceptable in public. When people started wearing open necked dress shirts the second button was raised. Now if you want to be unacceptable in public you have to undo the third button!

 

I can see what you mean, though it hasn't been a terrible problem for me unless the collar is a little tight. I have a couple custom shirts from the same maker who prefers to use six buttons instead of seven. The button spacing is wider, but from the top to second button it's almost smaller than the standard! Odd.

 

Just curious, Frank--Is that because you've hit upon just the right brand of RTW shirt (one with a consistent button stance)? Or because you wear only MTM shirts? My perception is that having an open collar (top button undone) is the limit for many (most?) men, and that leaving the first AND second buttons undone would create a plunging neckline that would be "too much" for most. Hence the frustration with the lack of a predictable standard. Leaving the top button undone becomes embarrassing when the second button is located way down at the navel. I wonder how you've solved the problem.

No mtm or bespoke shirts, just rtw. I kind of do stick with the same brands... Land's End; Clubroom (Macy*s private label); some RL; Pronto Uomo; Joseph & Feiss.

One thing I've noticed is that for "husky" men (me) or men with a thick base of the neck (me), even if the shirt is the right size, and you can button the collar, for some reason leaving the second button buttoned makes it look too tight. Especially with a buttondown collar. Then the second button absolutely has to be undone!

Maybe it's just my build or my perception. On most average build men, it does seem that undoing the second button makes him look like a Tony Manero-wannabe.

 

You can always get around this by specifying the gap between first and second buttons.

There was another thread on this topic today.

 

Now if you want to be unacceptable in public you have to undo the third button!

Undoing the third button is an ethnic thing, at least in my corner of the galaxy... Greeks and Hispanics, especially. My partner is Puerto Rican; when we go to a no-tie-required event I have to remind him that we are not going to a club... button your shirt.

Only if it's very warm, and I'm just "going about" or very casual, I will go three buttons. Or leaving work in hot weather. Hell, then the whole shirt may get unbuttoned and untucked. :devil:

 

A lot of it has to do with the length of your torso in comparison to how much neck/chest you show by leaving the second button unfastened. I'm 6'3 with a long torso, so it doesn't look distracting for me to leave that button unfastened. Others I see are shorter gents and it looks like they are trying to flash me. Also finding a RTW shirt brand that works for you is important. I've settled on Scott Barber or Peter Millar.

 

... when we go to a no-tie-required event I have to remind him that we are not going to a club... button your shirt.

I sympathise with you.

 

Charlie Watts seems to prefer the high and tight second button

https://img122.imageshack.us/my.php?image=h3charliebackstageatronix7.jpg

while the irrepresible Dr. House always leaves a couple unbuttoned, but does wear a tee shirt.

https://img379.imageshack.us/my.php?image=041110hughlaurie11awidehs5.jpg

I prefer Watts' look but the women in my life are all crazy about House. They think he's sexy looking.

Cruiser

 

One thing I've noticed is that for "husky" men (me) or men with a thick base of the neck (me), even if the shirt is the right size, and you can button the collar, for some reason leaving the second button buttoned makes it look too tight. Especially with a buttondown collar. Then the second button absolutely has to be undone!

I wonder if your posture is more stooped than the shirt pattern.

I think I have the opposite problem with some RTW shirts: the collar feels tight on the back of my neck (with just the collar button undone).

 

Kenneth Cole shirts have the second button set high, and they advertise it as a "feature" for tieless wear. When I'm driving home in my car with my tie loosened, I unbutton the second button, too. But only there.

 

This is why I look for entirely different designs in casual and dress shirts. It is not just a matter of fabrics and prints. The collar design and button stance should be application specific. Find the designs that work for you. This is where custom shirts can be a real advantage. Although I stay with ready to wear, those that go the custom route can get exactly the right look.

 

I wonder if your posture is more stooped than the shirt pattern.

I think I have the opposite problem with some RTW shirts: the collar feels tight on the back of my neck (with just the collar button undone).

I never thought of that, but my posture is pretty good.

I think the answer is that rtw shirts are cut for "average" build guys, but most guys are not average build.

 

Like I said, when going to a club you unbutton.

Either you come to terms with being a man with hair.

OR

If you are ashamed of having chest hair, you become a hairless man and pull off a Tom Cruiser.