Men's Clothing Forums banner
41 - 53 of 53 Posts
Discussion starter · #41 ·
I was going to post a thread about the Chamois shirt. I've been looking at them and I think I remember it being mentioned in a previous thread as a 70s Trad staple.

I have some questions about them. First, how do they fit? I generally wear a medium in all shirts, but those look a bit big to me. Are they? Also, I assume that they are warm, but how warm are we talking? Is it "So warm I don't need a jacket" warm or "It's a good mid-layer shirt" warm? Finally, and maybe least importantly, any preference to color? I tend to like the more odd colors of the shirt--chamois, orange, lighter green, etc.--however I really like the navy and charcoal. Thoughts?...

TT
They're sized pretty generously -- mine's large or XL and I wear it primarily as an overshirt. The fabric is thick and heavy, warmer than flannel, and can replace a light jacket in early fall or late spring; in cooler weather, I often wear it under an old down vest. As for color, the classics are the non-heathers: red, burgundy, chamois, hunter green, "bayside" blue, and navy.

In answer to Untilted's question, the chamois cloth shirts have always been made in Portugal, and according to the catalog they still are. The Scotch Plaid shirts are made of "Portuguese flannel," but presumably assembled elsewhere.

I guess flannel- and chamois-cloth shirt Trad is a regional variant, specific to the northeast. Along with the Bean Boot and the Norwegian sweater, I grew up wearing this stuff and simply took it for granted.
 
sizing/warmth

They're sized pretty generously -- mine's large or XL and I wear it primarily as an overshirt. ...
Not to dwell too much on the past -- though that sort of is part of the point of Trade, no? -- but up through the early 1990s Bean offered these shirts in true neck sizes. If memory serves my very old kelly green one has a 16 1/2 collar, with sleeves "sized accordingly" in the British/European way. It fit great, and I even wore it with a tweed tie once or twice for that British hunter look.

They're pretty darn warm. If you are going to be moving around a lot, one of these shirts plus maybe a Bean River Drivers' shirt or whatever it's called underdenth will suffice into the 30s. Or at least it would for me.
 
They're pretty darn warm. If you are going to be moving around a lot, one of these shirts plus maybe a Bean River Drivers' shirt or whatever it's called underdenth will suffice into the 30s. Or at least it would for me.
Good to know. I need a somewhat-heavy shirt like this to work around the farm. It gets pretty cold out in the country...

I'm going to order one today. As always, thanks for the input, guys...

TT
 
Discussion starter · #46 · (Edited)
While I prefer to support American workers who work in safe conditions with some semblance of environmental regulation, etc. All this talk of outsourcing has me wondering, if most of the manufacturing is machine driven anyway why would it matter if production is moved to China? It seemed that if, for example, Bill really wanted to move from Reading to Shanghai, and took all his equipment with him, he could find, out of the 1.1 billion people in China, enough skilled craftsmen to make pants that were identical to the ones he now makes. Outsourcing shouldn't necessairly mean poor quality.
These model should even apply to handmade goods. My mother, not feeling comfortable, or for that matter being able to afford, the $1000+ price tag of an authentic Nantucket basket, carries one that was made in China and cost between 80-90% of what an American made one would. While it will never have the collectability of an 'authentic' basket, the prevelance of forgeries would seem to show that the Chineese craftsmen can produce a basket that, to all but a few trained in american antiques, is essentiall the equal of a Nantucket basket. I'm not arguing that they are the same, or that if given my way I wouldn't buy my mother a 'real' Nantucket basket with lots of scrimshaw, and I understand the U non U-distinction that may be thrown at me, but when looked at, side by side (something which I have done, and I know a good deal about American decorative arts), they are really almost the same. Some of the Chineese made baskets almost fall into the musem quality replica category. Why aren't more offshore goods essentially reproductions? This is what the Japanese did. You want a good guitar, well lets take apart a Martin make it better, re-assemble it and call it a Takamine. You want a good piano, lets take apart a Steinway, make it better re-assemble it and call it a Yamaha.

Sorry for the tangent, but I suppose my question is, how much worse do things really get when they are outsourced, and does it have to be that way? It really doesn't seem like it should be so.
As I believe many of the folks on this board do, I try to buy American when I can. Some of this is quality-driven -- many things made here, particularly things, like Alden shoes, that have been made by the same company for decades, are simply better than similar things made less-expensively in other parts of the world -- and some of it is trad conservatism: the wish to own the genuine article, the same thing my dad or his dad would have owned. Replicas have their place, but eventually people lose the distinction and the real thing loses its uniqueness and eventually ceases to be available at all. Another aspect is the probably-quixotic desire to help out folks like David Mercer: I want David to be successful, and I want the production of quality goods to be a viable and even respected way of life here. I know dozens of very good lawyers; I only know one guy who makes top-notch custom OCBDs. Finally, I am mindful of the fact that any product made in the US by a reputable company was unlikely to have been made by children or in sweatshop conditions.

[I should say here that my philosophy extends to buying quality goods from the UK (and other countries in what used to be called the "First World") in the rare occasions when I can afford them.]

I will not say that all clothes produced in China are junk, nor that I own no Chinese-made goods. I'll even agree that given the low labor costs, the Chinese are well-suited to replicate many of the things we love at much lower costs (keep your eye on the nascent Chinese wine industry: in 15 years, they will likely be the world's largest producer of inexpensive table wine). But when I can, I'll spend a little more and buy American.
 
Today I received some items from Bean via mail, which I ordered Wednesday night by telephone. Now that is fast service! And they calculated the Canadian duty and taxes automatically so I didn't have to cough up more money on delivery.

Got the Norwegian sweater, which looks great (made in Hong Kong), and although it doesn't have the mix of the original models, is value for money paid (US$49). Fits true to size. Also got a pair of the blucher mocs (made in El Salvador), which fit wonderfully and I think are as good as any of the low end boat shoes like Sperry or Sebago, so again value for money (US$59). I would like a pair of the ranger mocs, but they don't come in EE widths.

No doubt Bean's stuff ain't the same as in the "golden days", but considering the low prices and the super-quick service I'm completely satisfied, and will probably order more stuff.
Yeah, I have to say - at least when Bean goes overseas they do keep their prices down. I think $59 is less than I paid for my Blucher Mocs about nine years ago - they are made in the U.S. - but i think they were $69; certainly they were not less than $59. Similarly, their chinos, flannels, and chamois seem like they're about the same price as they were about 10-15 years ago.
 
Egadfly,
I agree with what you say. I am terribly Romantic, and quite Quixotic as well, and I understand what you are saying about the "real deal". I'd someday like to have a pair of gun dogs named Sancho and Panza. I also like the service one gets from Quoddy and Mercer. While they aren't yeoman farmers, but I like the idea of small independent craftsmen selling their wares, it warms the Jeffersonian inside of me.
I suppose my real question got lost in the rant and poor punctuation "Why do clothes seem to suffer more than other goods when production is outsourced?". As I noted before, there are great cameras, cars and musical instruments now being made in places that were once industrial ghettos.
I think that while some of the supposed decline is nostalgia, much of it is real, and it comes from the fact that most people seem to care less about what they wear than what they eat or dirve. For whatever reason people have warmed much more quickly to the idea of outsourced shirts than they have to even California wines or Japaneese cars (it took 20+ years before people really took them seriously). Much of the decline is also due to the fact that we are discussing manufactured as opposed to handmade goods.
My example of the baskets was therefore a bad one. The baskets are more like Hong Kong tailors who have a very good reputation. I know more than a few proper English public school men who swear by HK tailors and only spout unrepeatable vitrol about the current patrons of most Savile Row houses, who have driven costs beyond the range of most. I've even heard of some venturing to Vietnam...
Anyhow, back to Bean...I understand why they've embraced outsourcing. They are a family store and need to provide reasonably priced clothes. Its nice that you can get good clothes at reasonable prices. They haven't suffered by outsourcing nearly as much as eddie bauer. Sadly, made in the US clothes will eventually become luxuries.
 
Discussion starter · #49 ·
"Why do clothes seem to suffer more than other goods when production is outsourced?"
I don't know that all clothes do. Millions of people seem perfectly happy in their Chinese-made Nike sneakers, Gap t-shirts, and Dockers. I can't say that those people are wrong for liking those things, or for feeling satisfied that they've gotten their money's worth.

We on this board are a tiny, cultish band who can distinguish between good-enough and great clothes, care passionately (and probably unhealthily) about the difference, and are willing to spend the money to maintain ourselves in a certain style, one that largely went out of style in the early 1960's. Why would the Chinese want to cater to us?

Dreamin' the impossible dream,

-- Egadfly
 
I have never, ever, noticed that my American made goods are any bette (or worse) than those made in other countries. I have very nicely made American things, and very nice ones that were made in China. I also have shoddy garments from China and America. I won't deny that I get a little satisfaction when I see "Made in the U.S.A.", but it never makes or breaks a purchase. I think its very simplistic to say that being made in one place makes it better than another, speaking purely from experience.

Then again, I am a complete and total supporter of free trade and most forms of outsourcing...
 
We on this board are a tiny, cultish band who can distinguish between good-enough and great clothes, care passionately (and probably unhealthily) about the difference, and are willing to spend the money to maintain ourselves in a certain style, one that largely went out of style in the early 1960's. Why would the Chinese want to cater to us?
I think this is an important point that you've made. We--by we, I mean those of us on the board (and those lurking)--are now, sadly but not exclusively, the exception rather than the rule. We don't fit the current clothing demographic because we not only seek out and recognize the differences in quality but also take pride in not settling, not giving in to "fashion" and "trends". Even mostly-Trad stores (see BB, LE as well as Bean) outsource, yet we're mostly okay with this (right?). And, even if we're not, we don't let it deter us from at least trying to project an image of basic concern for our appearance. I'd say from here on out, we won't be catered to; instead, we'll have to continue to search for diamonds in the rough...

TT
 
While I prefer to support American workers who work in safe conditions with some semblance of environmental regulation, etc. All this talk of outsourcing has me wondering, if most of the manufacturing is machine driven anyway why would it matter if production is moved to China? It seemed that if, for example, Bill really wanted to move from Reading to Shanghai, and took all his equipment with him, he could find, out of the 1.1 billion people in China, enough skilled craftsmen to make pants that were identical to the ones he now makes. Outsourcing shouldn't necessairly mean poor quality.
I agree as well...whereas 'Made in China' once meant 'crappy knock off that will fall apart in 5 minutes'...That is obviously not the case anymore. Sometime in the last 10 years the Chinese figured out that winning on price alone wasn't going to turn them into a 1st world nation. Now they get it and are running circles around the world in manufacturing.

I have noticed in general clothing I get from China, Thailand, Sri Lanka and Hong Kong is all pretty good. They are starting to outsource to India and I am generally not happy with their clothing.

Hey, for what it's worth, sometimes you but something that costs twice as much because it's MADE IN USA...and it's actually crappy.

I think we all have discerning eyes and know what we're dealing with most of the time.

Danny
 
41 - 53 of 53 Posts