[DG123]

Lasts are typically produced in a range of sizes. Say, $30,000 to produce a set of lasts.
You might consider the Walden, which is very similar to the Kenwood, and the Walden is available in the C width you want.

How much does it cost to make a last, and why can't a C width shoe, like the Kenwood, be custom ordered? If the AE web site states the following, would you consider this to be accurate? "All of our shoes can be ordered in mis-matched and special sizes for a nominal charge through our Consumer Assistance Center at 1-800-235-2348."

 

[cordovan2011]

Lasts are typically produced in a range of sizes. Say, $30,000 to produce a set of lasts.
You might consider the Walden, which is very similar to the Kenwood, and the Walden is available in the C width you want.

What constitutes a "set" of lasts for $30k? How many lasts are in a set? And what is the cost for one single last? How many times can a last be reused to make multiple pairs of shoes? How much does it cost to make one last as a custom order?

Isn't investing in lasts the cost of doing business for a shoemaking entity?

BTW, I like the Kenwood as it's a beefroll penny -- the Walden is not. Moreover, note that Walden is not offered in shell.

 

[Matt S]

How much does it cost to make a last, and why can't a C width shoe, like the Kenwood, be custom ordered? If the AE web site states the following, would you consider this to be accurate? "All of our shoes can be ordered in mis-matched and special sizes for a nominal charge through our Consumer Assistance Center at 1-800-235-2348."

What they wrote is incorrect and that's the issue here. But making another size in the last is not very easy. It's not worth it to them and by no means do they have to do that. They need to change what is written on their website.

 

[DG123]

Men's 6.5 to 13 is thirteen unique sizes. Multiply that by two (for left and right shoes) makes 26 lasts. That is one width.And a factory production run of shoes requires multiple lasts for each size, particularly in the large volume D width. Each width offered requires more lasts.
So, producing lasts is a significant expense.
Also relevant is the financial cost of carrying a finished inventory of shoes in a variety of widths. This is true for both the wholesale vendor (Allen Edmonds) and the retailer. I expect the reason AE has expnded its retail storefront presence is because it was too much of a challenge to find independent retailers willing to make the financial commitment necessary to stock multiple widths.
All things considered, Allen Edmonds current catlogue is astounding in the number of styles the company does produce and inventory in such a wide range of width offerings. I am disappointed AE does not stock shoes in my particular size, 12.5B . But, I do recognize and respect their impressive range of stock sizes/widths, which will fit 99% of the population. No other men's shoe brand is even close to AE's broad selection of styles/widths.

What constitutes a "set" of lasts for $30k? How many lasts are in a set? And what is the cost for one single last? How many times can a last be reused to make multiple pairs of shoes? How much does it cost to make one last as a custom order?

Isn't investing in lasts the cost of doing business for a shoemaking entity?

BTW, I like the Kenwood as it's a beefroll penny -- the Walden is not. Moreover, note that Walden is not offered in shell.

 

[cordovan2011]

M
Also relevant is the financial cost of carrying a finished inventory of shoes in a variety of widths. This is true for both the wholesale vendor (Allen Edmonds) and the retailer. I expect the reason AE has expnded its retail storefront presence is because it was too much of a challenge to find independent retailers willing to make the financial commitment necessary to stock multiple widths.

Hence why consumers should be able to instead custom order a special width so the shoemaker wouldn't have to stock finished sizes if they didn't want to (cost efficiency for AE).

 

[YoungClayB]

Hence why consumers should be able to instead custom order a special width so the shoemaker wouldn't have to stock finished sizes if they didn't want to (cost efficiency for AE).

There is a certain production efficiency that is achieved by making a "run" of shoes that is simply not possible when making a single pair of an odd size. AE is simply passing the marginal cost of this inefficiency onto the customer which seems completely fair to me.

Even with this marginal cost being absorbed by the customer, I would still venture to guess that AE is making less money (aka losing money based on opportunity cost of time and materials) when making single pairs of odd sized or narrow shoes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[cordovan2011]

Is there any research that shows a bell curve of the most common shoe sizes (and their widths) for men? It just seems like AE is skimping if they offer a B narrow width, but don't make C. It's like AE expects the C consumer to wear an ill fitting too tight B or a too wide D?

Remember, here's what AE says on their web site about ill fitting shoes and the diversity of their last sizes:

"Part of what makes Allen Edmonds shoes so unique is the extensive range of sizes and widths we offer that make achieving a perfect fit much simpler. Wearing the wrong size shoe can cause not only short-term discomfort but also long-term foot, back and joint ailments that could affect you the rest of your life."

 

[cordovan2011]

There is a certain production efficiency that is achieved by making a "run" of shoes that is simply not possible when making a single pair of an odd size. AE is simply passing the marginal cost of this inefficiency onto the customer which seems completely fair to me.

Even with this marginal cost being absorbed by the customer, I would still venture to guess that AE is making less money (aka losing money based on opportunity cost of time and materials) when making single pairs of odd sized or narrow shoes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I too am happy to pay a marginal extra fee for a custom order. But AE says they won't make a C width last for Kenwood when you try to custom order.

 

[YoungClayB]

My theory is this: It all boils down to when a particular last was introduced. A couple of things to consider:
1. Yes, there is a bell curve and a certain % of the population have narrow feet
2. 50-60 years ago, it was far more common for a man to buy a quality pair of shoes and wear them for life. In today's disposable society, the vast majority of men buy crappy disposable shoes. So assuming the same number of men having narrow feet, it made more sense from a demand perspective 50-60 years ago to invest the money required to make lasts in B,A,AA,AAA widths....the chances of a man with narrow feet stays the same, but the probability of that man being willing to pay more than 3 times what a disposable pair of shoes cost has gone way way down in the last 50-60 years...Heck, 50 years ago, I do not think that the disposable alternatives even existed.

This theory may be wrong, but its what I believe. LOL

By the way, I can almost gaurentee that AE has data to support this "bell curve" idea. And their decision to limit the widths offered on the newer lasts is surely based on this data. The same reason that Levis doesnt make bluejeans with only 1 leg...or 3 legs for that matter.

 

[DG123]

Yes, AE claims to offer a good selection of sizes and widths. Nowhere does Allen Edmonds claim that every single shoe style is offered in every possible size and width. About 50% of the company's line comes in C width, which is sensational. You are being unreasonable.

Is there any research that shows a bell curve of the most common shoe sizes (and their widths) for men? It just seems like AE is skimping if they offer a B narrow width, but don't make C. It's like AE expects the C consumer to wear an ill fitting too tight B or a too wide D?

Remember, here's what AE says on their web site about ill fitting shoes and the diversity of their last sizes:

"Part of what makes Allen Edmonds shoes so unique is the extensive range of sizes and widths we offer that make achieving a perfect fit much simpler. Wearing the wrong size shoe can cause not only short-term discomfort but also long-term foot, back and joint ailments that could affect you the rest of your life."

 

[DG123]

More so than for fit characteristics, new lasts are primarily designed to produce new style models. In other words, upper patterns and materials only go so far to create a new looking shoe design. The shoe shape (last) is a major component for creating new styles and, or , adding categories, collections.
Todays consumer definitely is more oriented to style than substance. For example, look at the boutiques here doing special Alden make up-orders, ordering 12-18 pair D-width-only small lots. The boutique retailer, and their customer, is all about the styling of upper material, outsole, colors etc... rather than the substance of fit.
A retail store front or shoe department within a department store is all about merchandising the floor with lots of different display models, designed to create an exciting presentation. Many different patterns and colors is easier to sell than one pattern . A store can display and stock 12 models of D width-only shoes for less financial cost than it costs to stock 2 models of multiple width shoes. These days, no store wants to have a small display of shoes with a full stock room of widths. It's too hard to sell the consumer on limited style offerings. Like the guy here on this thread crying that one shoe he wants doesn't come in C widths, while he ignores the 26 AE styles that do come in C widths.Consumers don't want to hear it. They go for fashion trend looks ahead of fit. It's a much easier sale for a store, and consequently the shoe brand vendors, to create lots of new models using varied lasts, materials, colors etc.... and sell the customer the sizzle , rather than the relatively boring story of limited styles offered in lots of widths.
You can't have both. Shoe stock rooms , vendor warehouses, and bank accounts are not big enough to have lots of style offerings and also multiple widths. The Euro brands don't even bother with any widths. Alden chooses to have a small line and decent width availbility. Allen Edmonds is the one vendor with both a big line as well as good width availability.

My theory is this: It all boils down to when a particular last was introduced. A couple of things to consider:
1. Yes, there is a bell curve and a certain % of the population have narrow feet
2. 50-60 years ago, it was far more common for a man to buy a quality pair of shoes and wear them for life. In today's disposable society, the vast majority of men buy crappy disposable shoes. So assuming the same number of men having narrow feet, it made more sense from a demand perspective 50-60 years ago to invest the money required to make lasts in B,A,AA,AAA widths....the chances of a man with narrow feet stays the same, but the probability of that man being willing to pay more than 3 times what a disposable pair of shoes cost has gone way way down in the last 50-60 years...Heck, 50 years ago, I do not think that the disposable alternatives even existed.

This theory may be wrong, but its what I believe. LOL

By the way, I can almost gaurentee that AE has data to support this "bell curve" idea. And their decision to limit the widths offered on the newer lasts is surely based on this data. The same reason that Levis doesnt make bluejeans with only 1 leg...or 3 legs for that matter.

 

[cordovan2011]

A store can display and stock 12 models of D width-only shoes for less financial cost than it costs to stock 2 models of multiple width shoes. These days, no store wants to have a small display of shoes with a full stock room of widths. It's too hard to sell the consumer on limited style offerings. Like the guy here on this thread crying that one shoe he wants doesn't come in C widths, while he ignores the 26 AE styles that do come in C widths.Consumers don't want to hear it.

Setting aside your condescension, your observation is a straw man fallacy. I'm not asking stores to stock C widths. Might I suggest you re-read my comments about custom ordering a C width directly from the manufacturer? AE even invites consumers to do this. See red box below from the AE web site.

 

[cordovan2011]

Again, Allen Edmonds has many shoes, nearly 50% of their line, available in C width.

Not sure where you are sourcing your claims. You will want to note that according to the AE web site, there are 20 C width offerings and 110 D width offerings. Therefore, isn't the number of AE shoes offered in "C" width really 18% of their shoe line -- and NOT "nearly 50% of their line" as you claim? (20 / 110 = 18.1%)

Below is a screen capture from the AE web site. AE allows you to filter their offerings by width so you can see the precise number of shoes they stock for each width. For the record, here are a few examples: ==>>

B width - 95 shoes
C width - 20 shoes
D width - 110 shoes
E width - 90 shoes

Below: screen capture from AE web site.

 

[DG123]

Again, nowhere does Allen Edmonds advertise, promote, or claim that the company will produce every size and width.
The company will ship mismates and will produce some odd sizes. That is a nice offering for many, yet you discredit it.
You are like the guy on here last week who trashed a shoe tree retailer for not refunding shipping.
One day, when all the manufacturers and retailers discontinue whatever friendly customer services they offer, the whiners who took advantage at every turn, will have nothing left to complain or nitpick about.
AE does have penny loafer style shoes available in C width. Not good enough for you.
AE's representative told you the company would not produce a pair of lasts ,upper pattern cutting dyes, insoles etc... just to make a single pair of shoes for you. Not good enough for you. Like the guy with the shoe trees, you want to interpret a company's policy your own way, and twist your story to make the company look unfavorable.
What you should do is be grateful AE makes as many shoes as they do in C width, buy one of those, keep quiet, and hope AE continues making C width shoes.

Setting aside your condescension, your observation is a straw man fallacy. I'm not asking stores to stock C widths. Might I suggest you re-read my comments about custom ordering a C width directly from the manufacturer? AE even invites consumers to do this. See red box below from the AE web site.

 

[YoungClayB]

....If you can live without cordovan, you might check out the Montecito. Its a nice looking penny on the 555 handsewn last and it runs very narrow...I wear an 8.5A in the 5 last and an 8.5AA in the 7 last and the 9B in the 555 last fits me very well. a D width would probably fit you perfectly in this shoe believe it or not. And they are only $199!

 

[firedancer]

Really cord,


Just buy your pennies elsewhere and drop it. Geesh.

 

[cordovan2011]

You are like the guy on here last week who trashed a shoe tree retailer for not refunding shipping.
One day, when all the manufacturers and retailers discontinue whatever friendly customer services they offer, the whiners who took advantage at every turn, will have nothing left to complain or nitpick about.
AE's representative told you the company would not produce a pair of lasts ,upper pattern cutting dyes, insoles etc... just to make a single pair of shoes for you.
What you should do is be grateful AE makes as many shoes as they do in C width, buy one of those, keep quiet, and hope AE continues making C width shoes.

You are like the guy on here that made up false information, like "Allen Edmonds has many shoes, nearly 50% of their line, available in C width." Oh wait, that was you! :biggrin:

And then when you were shown data from AE's web site confirming only 18% of AE's shoe line is available in C widths, you attack me personally instead of addressing the inaccuracies you touted.

Then your bizarre suggestion is that I be grateful for the 18% of shoes I can buy -- and I should go purchase a C shoe? If you had read my original post that kicked off this thread, I clearly stated I own a Leeds in C width. So I am an AE customer.

Yet your suggestion is to be reactionary and sit around and "hope" AE doesn't discontinue C's altogether? I'd rather be proactive and elevate this to AE management and encourage them to make MORE C widths. Other folks on this thread have asked for more choices in C as well.

Again, note the shoes offered for these widths per the AE web site:

B width - 95 shoes
C width - 20 shoes
D width - 110 shoes
E width - 90 shoes

This issue is bigger than any one shoe model, like the Kenwood, not being available in C width. Instead, the larger issue at play is that it appears AE has made a decision to reduce production investment and steer C width folks interested in the 82% of their shoe line not available in C width to a D width -- with a piece of crappy adhesive foam stuck under the tongue to make it tighter. If you don't believe me, walk into an AE store, try on a D and tell them it's too wide. If that shoe model is not available in C, they will walk to their point of sale counter, open a drawer, pull out the adhesive foam and offer to stick it under the tongue of the D width shoe to "fix it." This mickey mouse fix and lack of care about fit flies in the face of AE's marketing verbiage about how a poor fittting shoe can cause lasting physical problems.

It's a free market. I'm certainly free to buy from an AE competitor such as Alden. But as an AE customer who has purchased a pair of Leeds, I feel it's valid to express one's disappointment to the AE CEO that the Executive Committee of this quality shoemaking brand has chosen to under-serve the C width market segment to cut corners.

 

[Sharpe]

Ok couple things first I think what both DG and Fire were trying to get across is that beyond your size AE makes a lot of shoe sizes some which you don't seem to mention in your breakdown.

AAA (12)
AA (12)
A (12)
B (98)
C (20)
D (115)
E (93)
EE (4)
EEE (99)

Now these are just their standard in stock size run, if you talk with an AE sale persons custom they can make most shoes in lasts

511 (3A-3E)
73 (3A-3E)
234 (3A-3E)
65 (3A-3E)
97 (3A-3E)
108 (3A-3E)
678 (3A-3E)
79 (3A-3E)
114 (2A-3E)

So yes your Kenwood is excluded from this as its on the 800 last but I think if you were to add shoes from these last to your numbers you will find that AE probably can do well more then half their shoes in a C width. Disclaimer: There are probably a number of shoes that they can't make in these last, and plenty of lengths+width combinations as you get to some of the extremes. :icon_smile:

The fact that AE will make if they can just about any size for either no extra charge or really a minnium charge is amazing. Really how many companies make their type of size run standard and how many would only charge $75.00 to do a custom size?

To create a thread because by concidence you picked one of the few styles they can't make in your size is a bit extreme.

 

[cordovan2011]

Ok couple things first I think what both DG and Fire were trying to get across is that beyond your size AE makes a lot of shoe sizes some which you don't seem to mention in your breakdown.

AAA (12)
AA (12)
A (12)
B (98)
C (20)
D (115)
E (93)
EE (4)
EEE (99)

No. I highlighted all those numbers you posted by encasing them in a BIG RED BOX in post 33 above. Let me repost it for you for clarity (see below). The point is: if population width sizing is a "bell curve," why is there a huge anemic dip in C width stock inventory, sandwiched between the robust offerings for B and D widths? Are the 18% of stock shoes offered in C width a reflection of the population's shoe size -- or is it rather a business decision to steer C consumers to D shoes in order to cut production costs?

Now these are just their standard in stock size run, if you talk with an AE sale persons custom they can make most shoes in lasts

511 (3A-3E)
73 (3A-3E)
234 (3A-3E)
65 (3A-3E)
97 (3A-3E)
108 (3A-3E)
678 (3A-3E)
79 (3A-3E)
114 (2A-3E)

but I think if you were to add shoes from these last to your numbers you will find that AE probably can do well more then half their shoes in a C width. Disclaimer: There are probably a number of shoes that they can't make in these last,

The fact that AE will make if they can just about any size for either no extra charge or really a minnium charge is amazing.

To create a thread because by concidence you picked one of the few styles they can't make in your size is a bit extreme.

That's a lot of vague assumptions peppered with disqualifiers.

Let me see if I understand:

You think "most" shoes that use 9 of AE's 15 different last types can be custom ordered in C? But of that unknown percentage of shoes that use 60% (9 / 15) of AE's last types, there are an additional unknown number of the shoes that use those 9 lasts that can't be ordered in C? This quantifies nothing, yet you have no problem concluding "well more than half their shoes" are available in C via custom order.

As noted previously, the larger point is that this is bigger than the Kenwood or any one shoe. ==>> AE is a respected legacy shoe manufacturer that is under-serving the C width market.

 

[firedancer]

Hey Cord,
Have you been able to try on any shoes that don't come in the C width by sizing up in a B or sizing down in a D? I'm an 8D but can go up to a 9 Comfortably. I wear my Grayson's in a 9C actually. Ive also thrifted some 7.5E AE short wings that work well.

I think you may be pleasantly surprised. I also think this might yield better results than whining about it on an online forum.