I found your post interesting, though I disagree with much of it. I can't imagine paying $15K for made-to-measure. I'd fly to London and have a couple suits made there first. You could even commute for fittings.

Oxxford doesn't impress me nearly as much as it did you. It's well made, certainly. But most of their suits strike me as ... kind of boring. I have one and can't say I desire another. The newer stuff might be better, but I haven't really felt compelled to check it out.

In terms of the three brands you examined, my favorite is Kiton. Your comment about Abboud, to be honest, made me question your knowledge of suit construction. What was it that made you reach this conclusion?

 

Those quoted prices, if accurate, are shocking. SHOCKING.

Gasp!

[xx(]

 

Shirley you're not serious.

 

I find the bottom end prices exorbiting for the suits mentioned, or any suit for that matter. Why someone would spend 2k, 3k, or 4k and beyond on suit is baffling to me. Maybe I would feel differently if I earned millions per year, but I do not.

I guess the same question could be asked concerning cars or other luxury items. IMO, the difference is with clothing there is no greater technology involved. After all is said and done, a canvassed constructed jacket is a canvassed constructed jacket and what makes it interesting is the color, pattern and fit, and I don't see how theses three items would account for such a hefty price.

The same goes for shoes.

Smooth as silk...

 

In general, I find your remarks to be parallel to the greater part of my thirty-plus years of experience wearing tailored garments. Ultimately, though, I went to bespoke for a number of minor reasons.

My first Oxxford was purchased OTR in 1971. I continued purchasing Oxxford until 2000 when I elected to take the leap to bespoke. Having purchased both OTR and MTM Oxxford garments (by my count around 17 suits, 23 odd jackets, and only 10 or 12 pair of trousers), I was never disappointed with the quality. The finish tailors were always problematic for me. Ironically, most of the OTR garments fit as well as or better than the MTM. I have a terrible problem with the slope of my upper back that results in the ulgy litte roll requiring a "Lower the Collar" alteration. Even the Oxxford MTM coats had this dilemma every time. It didn't matter that some of the MTM coats were "measured" by the Oxxford repsentative at a trunk show!

In the mid-1990s, I decided to be slightly more fashion forward and, intermittently, purchased a few Brioni OTR suits (no odd jackets). All of them are the regular cloth. I've never worn one of the Escorial cloth pieces. Although I receive a fair number of compliments when I wear Oxxford garments, I cannot help but receive a compliment when I wear one of my few Brioni suits. The ugly little roll was still present in each Brioni before the tailors corrected it. Brioni is not as comfortable as Oxxford for me. But, I do really enjoy the silhouette in the mirror.

In 2000 I decided to see what all the talk was about concerning something called Kiton. Looking at them on the rack was no big thrill. But I was generally astounded by the feel of the cloth. The price was way too high for me to justify any experiment. A friend suggested I make such an experiment with Kiton via eBay. In a period of about eight months, I purchased four Kiton suits and one odd jacket on eBay. All were new items. The price was very "right" on all the items. I paid about four hundred to six hundred dollars per suit. The odd jacket was my last Kiton. All of the Kiton items were made for American retailers and have a fuller cut than the coats cut for Europe. Suddenly eBay was discovered and prices went through the roof. I don't believe you can touch a new Kiton on eBay for less than thirteen hundred dollars now. The cut and style of Kiton do not impress me. The amount of handwork in Kiton is little, if any, more than in Oxxford. However, the Kiton handwork is more obvious to most eyes. By far, the Kiton garments are most comfortable of the three to wear for me. The feel of Kiton is what truly impresses me.

To get the sturdy elegance of Oxxford, the slightly more pleasing silhouette of Brioni, and the whisper weight total comfort of Kiton, I went bespoke. It took one suit and two odd jackets before my tailor really had the pattern adjusted properly for me. Now, with three fittings being more of a formality rather than a necessity, I get exactly what I want when I want it at a price that is comparable to Oxxofrd MTM and less than Brioni and Kiton.

By the way, I still wear "old number one" from Oxxford. It's a grey herringbone tweed odd jacket. My tailor made it a more currently comfortable fit a few years ago. My body shape has changed very little since that coat was purchased. Even the old Oxxford trousers had enough to accomodate the extra inch and one-half that appeared on my waist over the years.
_________________________________________

 

Interesting. The only of those three brands that I would buy is Kiton.

The comfort of the jackets are astonishing, and for me the fit is far better that either Oxxford or Brioni, which may be the reason for the comfort. And I do like the fairly athletic cut of Kiton much better than the refrigerator cut of Brioni or the All-American cut of Oxxford.

I have not paid and will not pay full retail for Kiton, though.

 

Interesting... I was in the same store a few weeks ago and I'm a well known Oxxfordophile and I like Brioni as well.

While I generally find Kiton to be a bit pricey (and they get it, more power to them) it just isn't reasonable to compare their quality level to Joseph Abboud.

Abboud is a mass produced suit that is fused (they used to make a higher level jacket in Spain) and the materials are average. Not knocking it because they are priced accordingly.

Kiton is handmade and very well executed. Their fabrics are from the very best collections as well. OK, some of their fabrics are 'too good' in that while I understand how rare those fabrics are and how difficult to produce they tend not to be as durable as the battle-ready fabrics from Oxxford that will look great 50 wearings from now. ...But those Kiton fabrics are significantly more expensive and produced in smaller quantities.

I don't think you can reasonably compare a garment made by Kiton's tailors with one zipped through the 10-12 machines used to pop out an Abboud jacket in any way. OK, I take it back, both have sleeves.

I'd generally prefer and recommend bespoke at Kiton's prices but the objective quality points of a Kiton jacket are equal to just about anything out there.

www.carlofranco.com
Handmade Seven Fold Ties

 

quote:Originally posted by CarloFranco

I'd generally prefer and recommend bespoke at Kiton's prices but the objective quality points of a Kiton jacket are equal to just about anything out there.

I have heard, though, that the quality of Kiton ties are not equal to anything else out there. To be more precise, there are supposedly some people in Texas (of all places) who sell ties that are actually better. And for which I might even be willing to pay close to full retail.

 

Markus... you are a shrewd guy

www.carlofranco.com
Handmade Seven Fold Ties

 

Full Canvas, it is very interesting to hear from someone who has bought all three brands and has lived with them for a period of time.

TC Fashion, I agree with your conclusions that Oxxford is a better value and that Kiton is very overpriced. Part of its marketing appeal is that we are the best, and our price reflects it.

I have been told that Sr. Borrelli tells people that Borrelli makes the second best suit in the world. When asked who makes the best suit his response is Oxxford!

Mark Seitelman
www.seitelman.com

 

quote:Originally posted by Son of Beau Brummell
I have been told that Sr. Borrelli tells people that Borrelli makes the second best suit in the world. When asked who makes the best suit his response is Oxxford!

That is a very politically astute comment. After all, most people who would consider a Borrelli suit probably don't consider themselves candidates for Oxxford and vice versa.

 

I own all the brands discussed here Oxxford, Brioni, Kiton, Borrelli but unfortunately not Carlo Franco (yet!). Most recently I have tried on the new model Oxxford Radcliffe at several different stores in Philly, NYC and Chicago. It was a real disappointment and I had several very experienced salesmen who concurred with my assessment. I would agree that the Oxxford maybe the most well contructed garment but for me the Oxxford fit does not work for my body shape. Even the Radcliffe with its more natural shoulders and chest appears boxy and unnatural to my eye.
I think that the Brioni look has also lost its appeal to me with the exception of the some Millenio models I purchased abou 3 years ago. They are nicely trim fitting with with a bit less of a natural shoulder but quite nice looking.
For my money, I still consider Kiton and Attolini to fit me the best of all the brands I've tried on. They are outrageously priced and therefore I have never bought one at retail. But their fabrics are remarkable and their fit is superb. I think that Borrelli and Isaia come close especially given their price point.
I won't argue the bespoke vs. Kiton choice. I'd like to try bespoke (I never have) but often I find patterns off the rack that I love and wouldn't have thought to consider from looking at a swatch with a tailor. Also as someone posted either here or on AA, bespoke is a process and you may not be happy with the first iteration. With off the rack (if it fits well) you know what you have immediately. So... for fit and style (on me anyway), the fabrics, construction and the ability to purchase at discounted prices my personal ratings are:

Attolini
Kiton
Isaia
Borrelli
Brioni
Oxxford

Others will obviously order these differently!

 

This thread, which started as a bunch of b.s. in my opinion, has turned very interesting. I can see where one may consider Oxxford mundane and boring if that is what the respective store is showing OTR. Yet, when one looks through their swatches, one can find some very interesting patterns and colors. With the addition of Holland & Sherry to their mothership, the fabrics will only get better. Oxxford fits me very well. In fact, I like the Radcliffe for me and my body habitus. Brioni is a little too shoulder heavy for my own tastes. MTM Oxxford allows me to select colors, patterns and styles more to my preference. It helps that the coat fits me. Kiton is interesting. I cannot say that I have ever seen a more phenomenal RTW/OTR selection of fabrics (and can only imagine what going through their books must be like). That may very well be a function of the store and what it carries from Kiton (Stanley Korshak). I am lucky in that I have found a few brands that fit me well RTW. I think that my next suit may very well be bespoke. (are you reading Chris Despos). I fall into the immediate gratification crowd and have found going bespoke to be difficult. I think that the process for someone who is interested in clothing would be awsome. I just do not know if I am ready to wait. To ease my way in to the process, I started with a pair of Tony gaziano shoes and have been having some shirts made. I look forward to the next adventure of bespoke suits and coats...

"...always aspire to live simply and elegantly." - Madeleine Finn

 

quote: I think that my next suit may very well be bespoke. (are you reading Chris Despos). I fall into the immediate gratification crowd and have found going bespoke to be difficult.

The idea is when you come by for the fitting you pick up the previously orderd suit and order the next. When you fit the new one, you pick up the one you tried on the time before. Continual fitting and picking up. Gratification to the max.

 

This topic shows why it is impossible to pick the "best" among Oxxford, Brioni, Kiton, etc. There are some who prefer the sturdy workmanship of an Oxxford, even if it is a little boxy Others, prefer the delicate construction of a Kiton, and its more slim fit. For the more fashion forward, there are Attolini and Borrelli. For those that have worn them all, Full Canvas, it is interesting to hear your perspective. I think the discussion is very positive when it focuses on the differences between these brands rather than on which one is "better." Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as they say.

 

fit comes first, i have mentioned it before. and it is true. the rtw or mtm garment that feels good and looks good is your suit. each suit maker has its own range of styles, and pattern system, and construction methods. no two are alike. you may try on a garment and love the way it feels. the next person trying the same model will say it feels like a peice of crap. it all depends if a makers pattern fits your body. after all no two people are exactly alike. i have seen cheap otr suits that fit very well, and costly ones thhat are a soso fit. what counts is did the maker construct his pattern to fit your body or someone else. we are talking rtw here of course.

Alex Di Pietropaolo

 

I just returned from a trip in Milan where I tried out Brioni, Kiton and Rubinacci. As you know Rubinacci is the only bespoke option of the three and there suits were exceptionally beautiful. They looked similar to the A&S soft cut, but with much better details such as button holes hand-stitiching, etc. However the only problem I had was that whil ethe jackets were extremely comfortable and soft they did lack a lot on structure. They really did look like a nice sweater cut like a jacket. Kiton's jacket's have really a nice feel on the shoulders and the chest, however as other people in the forum have noted the durability of the trousers seem to be a big question. The fabrics they use are really too delicate for daily wear. Their lowest line starts at Super 150. This would be the most delicate line for many Saville Row tailors.
What I liked at Brioni the most is that there fabric can be chosen from more solid lines such as Super 100s and 120s which will make a much more durable suit (of course Rubinacci has some English cloth at that quality) then a Kiton and there jacket's had much more structure when compared to the Napolitan style of a Rubinacci or a Kiton. However the jackets did not feel to stiff like many Saville Row tailros (excluding A&S of course). While Kiton is anout 20% cheaper then the other two options I must say that I believe you will get more for your money from a Brioni or Rubinacci. The only choise you have to make if you prefer the soft Napolitan cut over the more structured Roman cut.

 

quote:Originally posted by Son of Beau Brummell

Full Canvas, it is very interesting to hear from someone who has bought all three brands and has lived with them for a period of time.

TC Fashion, I agree with your conclusions that Oxxford is a better value and that Kiton is very overpriced. Part of its marketing appeal is that we are the best, and our price reflects it.

I have also worn all three. I would have to agree that Oxxford is probably the best constructed. Everybody at Kiton and Brioni says that Oxxford has the most and best handwork. That being said, Oxxford suits lack any sort of sex appeal whatsoever. That may not be important to some, but to me it is.

The pricing for Kiton and Brioni is almost identical. A Kiton cashmere jacket is probably fifty dollars more expensive than Brioni, and a Brioni 150s suit is probably a hundred dollars more than Kiton. Since Kiton fabrics are probably a touch nicer, and they put more hours into each garment (according to both them, Oxxford and Brioni reps), I don't see how one can be overpriced and the other not. I think it is in fashion to bash Kiton prices. They certainly leave themselves open to that. However, the overstatement of how much their products cost that goes on here is amazing. The claims simply have nothing to do with reality.

quote:I have been told that Sr. Borrelli tells people that Borrelli makes the second best suit in the world. When asked who makes the best suit his response is Oxxford!

I would be careful when talking to Fabio. He is hardly the worlds most honest guy. I have spoken with him many times over the years. Five years ago, he was telling me that they made the best fitting, best made RTW jacket coming out of Naples. Last year he told me that what they were making five years ago was basically unwearable garbage and that now they are making the best jacket around.

Borrelli tailoring is pretty shoddy. They like to show you the pick stitching that they do and say that because of it, they are the most handmade garment out there. The pick stitching seems to be the majority of what they do by hand. For example, if you look at an Oxxford, Brioni or Kiton pant, you will see that the interior waist lining is attached by hand and the belt loops are inserted into this lining on the inside of the pant. These are two of the real marks of quality for a pant. Borrelli will tell you that they make the best pant bar none, and that they are the most handmade. Borrelli pants have neither of the two features I mentioned above. THey are simply a machine made pant with a pick stitch running down the side. So goes the rest of their clothing.

 

Personally I think Kiton has the best fashion