[Flanderian]

There is no such thing as an ascot tie!

The item worn on the skin under the shirt is called a cravat, nothing else!

As something of a word lover, I must take issue.

While the term day cravat (Other cravats being something entirely different.) is the appropriate term in English, English, in American English, the term that has been used for nearly 100 years is ascot. Whether it was initially a misappellation is no longer relevant due to it's long-standing adoption into American English. I see nothing wrong with there being different but equally valid terms used in different parts of the world for the same thing. Rather, they should be championed and preserved for the richness that they add to life. Language is culture!

Certainly, were I to reside in the U.K. I would make a point of using my hosts' term, for the sake of courtesy and to be better understood. But as an American residing in America I will continue to refer to ascots as such in my native land, and suspenders will continue to be that rather than braces. Unless other Americans also adopt petrol for gasoline and dust bin for garbage cans, etc., they may wish to consider what they derive from deliberately choosing a more arcane term from another land. It is certainly no more, of less, legitimate.

 

[JLibourel]

Actually, the term "ascot tie" is quite commonly used. Usually, it means either the common "casual" ascot (day cravat) or the formal ascot, as discussed above. However, I believe the term "ascot tie" is also sometimes used to designate a slightly different garment that has two long and fairly thin tabs held in place by a stickpin. This is best reserved for SASS competitors, steampunk enthusiasts and the like.

When I was a young man, it was fairly common to refer to any necktie as a "cravat," as an elegant variation. I note that Daniel K. Hall in his book "How to Tie a Tie" published in 2008 observes, "Nowadays cravat is used to describe any type of neckwear, though some wrongly believe it to be strictly interchangeable with 'ascot.'"

 

[Flanderian]

Actually, the term "ascot tie" is quite commonly used. Usually, it means either the common "casual" ascot (day cravat) or the formal ascot, as discussed above. However, I believe the term "ascot tie" is also sometimes used to designate a slightly different garment that has two long and fairly thin tabs held in place by a stickpin. This is best reserved for SASS competitors, steampunk enthusiasts and the like.

When I was a young man, it was fairly common to refer to any necktie as a "cravat," as an elegant variation. I note that Daniel K. Hall in his book "How to Tie a Tie" published in 2008 observes, "Nowadays cravat is used to describe any type of neckwear, though some wrongly believe it to be strictly interchangeable with 'ascot.'"

Thank you for the useful and instructive excursion in philology.

I attempted to remember the correct term for a cravat other than the day cravat, or ascot and ascot tie, and could not, so I hedged. It may well be formal ascot though I will need to consult some photos to fix in my mind's eye the difference between it and your above referenced garment commonly held with a stickpin.

I too in my youth sometimes heard conventional neckties referred to as cravats, particularly in advertising. And as I'm sure many have, have read of the term originating in France inspired by the neck wrappings worn by Croat soldiers.

 

[Earl of Ormonde]

Just because American English has used a term for something for a long time, that doesn't make it right; and vice versa.
A waistcoat is a waistcoat, a vest is a vest, a cravat is a cravat, a tie is a tie.

And in British/Irish English: tap for faucet is incorrect, as is jacket for coat, as is hat for any headgear, as is toilet for lavatory. Toilet refers to washing and dressing, not answering the call of nature, hence toilet water, toilet cloth, toilet mirror (on a dressing table), toiletry (articles used when washing and dressing)

 

[Flanderian]

Just because American English has used a term for something for a long time, that doesn't make it right; and vice versa.
A waistcoat is a waistcoat, a vest is a vest, a cravat is a cravat, a tie is a tie.

And in British/Irish English: tap for faucet is incorrect, as is jacket for coat, as is hat for any headgear, as is toilet for lavatory. Toilet refers to washing and dressing, not answering the call of nature, hence toilet water, toilet cloth, toilet mirror (on a dressing table), toiletry (articles used when washing and dressing)

That would only be true if English was one unchanging, unchanged language with no national or regional variations. If that were true, you and I would both still be speaking German. One's lack of familiarity with a wider world does not dismiss its existence.

 

[Serenus]

I am a real fan of the ascot (or "day cravat") for a number of reasons. I think it's practical (keeps you warm) and more comfortable than a long tie or bow tie since you can keep your collar open. As for wearing it with a jacket, I don't always think it's "necessary," but I personally would never wear an ascot with a double-breasted jacket because I think it would look a bit too affected.

I don't shy away from wearing pastel ascots occasionally, but only use them in the spring/summer, and with other elements that complement or tone down the light color. You sometimes have to build around the ascot so that it does not appear to stick out more than it will just by being there in the first place.

But there's another good reason for wearing the ascot with a jacket. If you get tired of it around mid-afternoon, you can always take it off and stick it in your jacket's breast pocket, as a pocket square! Hah!

 

[JLibourel]

Just because American English has used a term for something for a long time, that doesn't make it right; and vice versa.
A waistcoat is a waistcoat, a vest is a vest, a cravat is a cravat, a tie is a tie.

And in British/Irish English: tap for faucet is incorrect, as is jacket for coat, as is hat for any headgear, as is toilet for lavatory. Toilet refers to washing and dressing, not answering the call of nature, hence toilet water, toilet cloth, toilet mirror (on a dressing table), toiletry (articles used when washing and dressing)

You forget that American English has preserved a lot of usages whose meaning has changed in British English or that have disappeared altogether. "Vest" would be a good example of this. FYI, most Americans say "faucet." Most of us would regard calling, say, a watch cap a "hat" incorrect or at least suboptimal. It's always a good idea to know what you are talking about before pontificating.

 

[Earl of Ormonde]

You forget that American English has preserved a lot of usages whose meaning has changed in British English or that have disappeared altogether. "Vest" would be a good example of this. FYI, most Americans say "faucet." Most of us would regard calling, say, a watch cap a "hat" incorrect or at least suboptimal. It's always a good idea to know what you are talking about before pontificating.

Pontificating? Or just an opinion? Strange how every time a Paddy, a Brit a Frog or a Kraut or any of my other European cousins expresses an opinion contrary to what many Americans think on here it is called provocative, inflammatory or pontificating. Some of you Americans really need to learn that an indiviudal writing on a forum is nearly always expressing a personal opinion without having to write IMO every time, and also that the American view is not the world view.

BTW, perhaps you should read things properly before providing a kneejerk reaction.

"And in British/Irish English: tap for faucet is incorrect, as is jacket for coat, as is hat for any headgear, as is toilet for lavatory."

Also, there is no other older English word for waistcoat, it has never been called a vest in Britain. OE "waest" means growth, as in waistline; whereas "vest" comes from the Latin "vestis" which simply means garment.

 

[JLibourel]

Also, there is no other older English word for waistcoat, it has never been called a vest in Britain. OE "waest" means growth, as in waistline; whereas "vest" comes from the Latin "vestis" which simply means garment.

Actually, London tailors reportedly do (or did until very recently, anyway) use the term "vest" in the American sense. I believe the usage in this sense goes back to the 17th century*. I can recall being surprised when a friend at Oxford referred to what we call "undershirts" as "vests." He remarked, "Yes, and it's a lot nicer than what you call them." "And what is that?" I inquired. "Sweat shirts," he replied. "No, those are what you call 'track shirts'," was my reply. My British friends were also amused to learn that when I had been sending trousers to the laundry, I had been describing them as "pants." The terms are, of course, synonymous in the States, but mean two quite different garments in Britain. The American custom is older and more etymologically "correct," as is often the case.

*On looking into the matter, I find this is attested by Samuel Pepys in 1666.

 

[Il Signor Crispone]

I'm just about to take the plunge and join the elegant brotherhood of cravat-wearers - having hitherto been prevented from doing so by a lamentable poltroonishness.

I'm thinking of making my first purchase from here:

https://www.cravat-club.com/collections/wedding-season/products/irving

Also a more sedate and classic dot:

https://www.cravat-club.com/collections/our-printed-collection/products/royce

I'm waiting for delivery of two suits - both dark blue, one pinstripe, one a needle-sharp narrow herringbone. Both single-breasted 3 button with a double-breasted waistcoat (or vest). I'm going to try these out with the blue suits, and then hopefully expand from there.

Personally, I don't see any problem wearing one under a full rig, with waistcoat having removed the jacket, with shirt and v-neck jumper, just a shirt or whatever.

 

[Tempest]

The Silas and Monty would be my choices, not that anyone asked.

An ascot with a suit, especially a pinstripe, is very counter to tradition. However, it's hard for me to get too uppity as it's a practicallydead accessory that almost nobody is aware of in any real context.

 

[Il Signor Crispone]

Paisley is always good. Monty I'm less sure about.

I'm aware it might well be a complete failure, but it's something I've wanted to try for ages. If it doesn't work, no big thing.

If I remember I'll post some snaps for people to fling things at.

 

[Keep Dandyism Alive]

Hello you all. I just found out that Fort Belverdre (The webshop that is part of the Gentleman's Gazette) is making real formal ascots with an interlining and no pleats in the neckband. This is their link: https://www.gentlemansgazette.com/s...ette.com/shop/morning-wear/formal-ascot-black-silver-basketweave-fort-belvedere

Note that they only come in silver with black, but they do come in different patterns. I hope this was helpful.

 

[Maljunulo]

I would love to wear one, but I don't think I have the stones.

"Ascot tie" sounds redundant to me, somewhat akin to "CRT tube" or "PIN number".

 

[Flanderian]

I would love to wear one, but I don't think I have the stones.

"Ascot tie" sounds redundant to me, somewhat akin to "CRT tube" or "PIN number".

You just need the right frame of reference! :thumbs-up:

 

[Maljunulo]

Just because American English has used a term for something for a long time, that doesn't make it right; and vice versa.
A waistcoat is a waistcoat, a vest is a vest, a cravat is a cravat, a tie is a tie.

And in British/Irish English: tap for faucet is incorrect, as is jacket for coat, as is hat for any headgear, as is toilet for lavatory. Toilet refers to washing and dressing, not answering the call of nature, hence toilet water, toilet cloth, toilet mirror (on a dressing table), toiletry (articles used when washing and dressing)

"Toilet roll" is an obvious exception.

 

[JLibourel]

I will just ask, how much of a qualitative difference is there between the "casual ascot"/"day cravat" and the "formal ascot." Is there a significant difference in styling (other than materials), or is it mostly just how they are worn: stuffed into a shirt collar or tied outside the collar and commonly fastened with a stickpin?

 

[Flanderian]

I will just ask, how much of a qualitative difference is there between the "casual ascot"/"day cravat" and the "formal ascot." Is there a significant difference in styling (other than materials), or is it mostly just how they are worn: stuffed into a shirt collar or tied outside the collar and commonly fastened with a stickpin?

Thus -

And thus -

But it was uh-uh at Ascot this year. Long ties only!

 

[Emilly]

These ties always appeal me.

 

[burnedandfrozen]

I recently started wearing an ascot earlier this year. I was 46 at the time and figured the mid-40's would be a good age to start. I've already been wearing spectators since my 20's so I'm no stranger to some of the more risque articles of mens clothing. Anyway, I wasn't sure how the whole ascot thing would go over with me so I found a few lesser expensive examples on amazon and purchased several; yellow, maroon, blue, and black all with polka dots. Turns out I enjoyed wearing them greatly. I don't wear them with a suit or sport jacket or even with a open collar shirt but I wore mine during the colder Los Angeles days with a V neck sweater or a long sleeve collared polo shirt. The honest truth is that I think most people either didn't notice or didn't care. Most comments I got were from friends and acquaintances and they were very positive and favorable. I did have one buddy of mine say I looked like I should be on a yacht . Otherwise, the world didn't stop.

I think confidence is key. If you wear something you are unsure of, it will make you uncomfortable and maybe even fidgety which others will pick up on. Now I also think one needs to not overdo it, for example I would never wear spectators and an ascot at the same time, that would just be too much, but one or the other...why not? As long as you wear what you choose with aplomb I think some men would secretly admire your confidence. Now that we are in the dog days of summer, I don't wear my ascots, the thought of a strip of silk wrapped around my neck in 90 degree heat fills me with dread. So I look forward to the cooler weather of the fall so I can start wearing them again. In fact, when I went to look online for higher quality examples in different patterns I got quite a sticker shock. So I went to my tailor and asked her if she could make these for me. She took the one I brought as an example and wrote out what size of material I would need and I went to the garment district downtown and bought a few squares of silk for a few bucks a piece. Then I brought them back to the shop and she kept one of my amazon purchases to work from and she made two new ones for me for $20 each. I'd buy more but apparently the type of silk needed for these aren't in great supply downtown.