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Canali suit - can it be Super 120's if the label doesn't say it?

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#21 ·
Wait...he calls the supers designations a "red herring" but used it himself? Sounds like you got a fighter on yer hands. Good luck...I've dealt with jerks like this before.

(I hope the a$$wipe is reading this right now.)
 
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Discussion starter · #22 ·
Teacher, to be fair, he himself didn't use the word red herring, I used it to summarizez his three sentences on the subject. He said in so many words it was an irrelevant metric.

I am determined now to await LR's return from the Bahamas and discuss it directly with him on his cellphone (the one registered as contact # on the WhoIs lookup).
 
#23 ·
Spence said:
Even though the seller may have misrepresented the item, unless you have an easy way to prove it's not Super 120's fabric I'd be suprised if Ebay felt you had any real grounds to stand on.

I had the same thoughts when I bought what I believe to be a fake bag earlier this year. The seller did take the return, but I didn't push for shipping charges because how could I prove it was a fake?

-spence
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That's different. If a bag says "Canali" (or whatever), and that's how it was represented, then it's not clear the seller was pulling a fast one. He/she could simply be offering something as it appears without being or pretending to be an expert.

On the other hand, claiming that a suit is something without its being marked as such is either a demonstration of expertise (and thus should bring forth a straightforward answer from him) or blatant dishonesty. So far, based on the lack of a "super 120's" label and lack of a clear response, it sounds like the latter to me.
 
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#24 ·
DunninLA said:
I may have received a touche response, not sure yet.

The reply to my question "on what basis did you list the fabric as Super 120s" elicited a three paragraph reply about 1) forum bias, 2) the red herring that is the Super XX claims in general, 3) that Canali and Zegna rarely list their fabrics as Super 120, 4) the relative quality of Canali fabric vs. Armani & Hugo Boss, and finally 5) that the true test of a fabric is how it handles wrinkles during the day and how long it wears.

So I had 5 questions answered that I had not asked, and still await an answer to the 1 question I DID ask. I wrote back today:

"I apologize for not being clear about my question in the first email, so please allow me to clarify: "what is your basis for listing the fabric in the ebay listing as Super 120s?""

I await the reply.
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Don't you think he would have answered you directly if he had a legitimate response? Good luck with it but it seems painfully obvious that he just threw in that S120s to make his auction more appealing. If you like the suit the way it is, good for you but if you're dead set on S120 fabric, I would file a claim asap if I were you because he's likely to string you along for weeks hoping you'll just give up.
 
Discussion starter · #25 ·
Actually, I did get a response this evening... the person who answered my question doesn't actually know why the suit was listed as such, as he is in customer service and not the person who made the listing.

I am directed to another person and will email him tomorrow.
 
#26 ·
DunninLA said:
Actually, I did get a response this evening... the person who answered my question doesn't actually know why the suit was listed as such, as he is in customer service and not the person who made the listing.

I am directed to another person and will email him tomorrow.
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And the run around begins. As mentioned earlier both of my 120's are marked as that with their own label on the inside of the jacket and trousers. So is my 150's from another Itailian suit maker. I've looked at a lot of his auctions overtime and some don't seem to stack up (R.R.P etc)
 
#27 ·
DunninLA said:
Actually, I did get a response this evening... the person who answered my question doesn't actually know why the suit was listed as such, as he is in customer service and not the person who made the listing.

I am directed to another person and will email him tomorrow.
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Yes, you certainly should do this. However, the word "scam" comes to mind....
 
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Discussion starter · #28 · (Edited)
Had a twenty minute phonecall and a couple of email exchanges with the owner and #2 guy there who made the listing, and here's what I think is a fair summary of the communications:

- they marked it Super 120 either because it said that on the manifest from the store that send them the old stock to clear, or
- because they've been in the business for 20 years and know what Canali 120s or 140s fabric feels like by examining it carefully, even if Canali has not marked the fabric from that mill as Super 120s, or
-because they know that a tight weave glenn plaid such as my suit only comes from Canali is Super 120 or higher

In the case of my suit, it appears the second and third methods were used to determine the threadcount and that's how the suit was listed.

All well and good, but they didn't STATE that it was their "professional judgement" which leads them to stand behind that designation in this particular ebay listing.

We had some discussion about ethics, about the fact that if they don't KNOW it is super 120s, then it is better to simply describe that though unmarked, they are sure it is because of xxx reason.

We all have to live with our own ethics I suppose. I have been free from the first communication to return the suit for a full refund if I choose.

Haven't made that decision yet. I am wearing the suit today to confirm my feelings. I like the suit, I wish it had a slightly more luxurious hand, and it may be worth the $255 I paid even if I were to find out it is a super 80 or whatever number can be assigned to the fabric.

I had never considered that a seller would make an out and out statement of FACT in the title that is actually not a FACT, but opinion. I know better now. Whenever a listing states something critical to my purchase decision, I will ask for confirmation.
 
#29 ·
DunninLA said:
I had never considered that a seller would make an out and out statement of FACT in the title that is actually not a FACT, but opinion. I know better now. Whenever a listing states something critical to my purchase decision, I will ask for confirmation.
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I think this is all too common regardless if it's intentional or not.

Like the overcoat I was looking at the other day which clearly stated "Made in Italy" in the title, when a photograph of the label clearly stated "Made in Hungary" and "Italian Fabric" :)

-spence
 
#30 ·
They sound like hucksters to me. Here's how it sounds to me:

Customer: So, how do you know this is what you say it is?

Seller: Because I'm an expert.

Customer: Well, okay, but how do I know you're an expert?

Seller: You should trust me.

Customer: Why should I do that?

Seller: Because I'm an expert.

...and so on.

Now, that is the ethics part of this, which I think is a wash. As for the practical side on your account: if you like the suit, just keep it and be happy. I absolutely agree with your assessment of the seller and his ethics, but I also think you probably got a good deal on a nice suit. Then again, if you're not satisfied with the suit itself (ethics aside), you should get your money back. Fair is fair.
 
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#31 ·
The listing of this suit was suspect from the beginning. Really nothing he said was true. I have never seen a Canali suit for $3,000.00. Then he says "it still sells for over $2000.00" What does that mean?

The guy is not an honest vendor and you caught him in a big lie. His reputation is tarnished at least on AAAC.

Having said that, The suit is very nice looking. A classic Glen Plaid. If you like it and it fits well then you got a suit for $255 that you would not find anywhere else.

I wish that Clothing Manf. would have dates on the tags inside the garment so one would know when the garment was made. This would help buyers of used clothing know what the true valeu of the garment is.

Unlike fine wine, Even if kept perfectly for years, a suit does not keep its value. A 5 year old used Kiton suit really has very little value. People bid because of the name. It is a well made suit but at what cost?
 
#32 · (Edited)
Greetings,

Mr. Dunn has made us aware of this thread and we thank him for doing so. We also appreciate the assistance all of you have offered. We must admit after being avid readers ourselves of the AA Forums for years, we are at a miss for the lack of actual information provided by the replying members. As years have gone by, it appears as the forums are becoming more of subjective opinion rather than objective knowledge and for this we should all, as members, be ashamed of ourselves.

Unfortunately, the true underlying issue with the suit is that Mr. Dunn does not like the feel of the suit. He assumed a more "luxurious hand." Mr. Dunn likes a lightweight suit of 7 to 9 ounces per yard. His desire for a lightweight luxurious hand has nothing to do with the Super designation as we all know this feel can be achieved from anything from Super 100 up to 160's with the right finish. The suit he purchased is a light to mid weight suit most likely weighing in at 11 to 13. This is the issue. More importantly, our disturbance with this transaction is not the title, the super designation (as we know we are correct and have given Mr Dunn the resaons for this), or even this thread on AA. Our issue is that our customer is unhappy with the item based on his feel of the cloth. Our suggestion to him from the beginning was to return the item and we can assist him in finding the fabric he fancies or we can happily refund him. We have not once given him the runaround as many of you suggested. We also suggested he visit his own local boutiques to actually feel fabrics and test them before buying. Unfortunately, buying a suit on eBay, while you get a great price, you are not able to test drive the item. Unfortunately because of this you are at some risk for disappointment.

As an avid reader of the AA forums for many years I am very disappointed to find so many postings offering nothing more than opinions and speculations. I actually applaud members Bob Loblaw and ZegnaMTL for actually trying to assist Mr. Dunn with his query by offering or trying to offer factual information.

Teacher --- I am appalled by your ability to make such conclusions regarding our organization without having any dealings or discussions with us-even referring to us as a##wipes-shame on you. Additionally, your inability to provide any worthwhile knowledge on the subject matter contained within this post is dumbfounding. After all, you should at least live up to your name. If I were to be as subjective as you, I would suggest you are only replying to keep up with the requirements of your vain "Honors Member" designation.

"How vain is it to sit down to write when you have not stood up to live." HDT

As for your "Expert" designation, yes we/i are/am. I have carried thousands upon thousands of suits and fabrics over the years for over 40 lines and am not restricted to only my personal taste or what has hung in my closet. I have spent my entire life surrounded by the textile and apparel industry. As a young man, I was mentored by perhaps the most respected man in the trade, Harry H. Mansbach of Norfolk, Va. He, my friend, wore the true badge of teacher. https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?031+ful+HJ665. Along the way, I have worked with other fine gentleman establishments and retailers from NYC to MIAMI, Florida before creating my own line several years ago.

So yes my dear sir, I think that makes me an expert.

In closing, I will restate the issue.

The problem for us is not the description of the item (which is accurate on all accounts), but rather our customer is not satisfied.

Mr Dunn, again you are welcome to return the item.

I also wanted to include some excerpts and links for all of you to view. Perhaps we all can learn from these.

The Following is an excerpt from an email sent to Mr Dunn:

To say that the number measuring system is flawed is inaccurate. The numbering system is okay as long as consumers have a true understanding of the system. Number one, different tests provide different outcomes. Number 2, Texture and weight are not determined by the numbers, period. To suggest or assume this is grossly wrong. Personally, I like to know the suit's Super number as I prefer suits of durability and strength as opposed to texture and design. I refuse to buy anything over a weighty 140's, as the fabric in my opinion, while luxurious, lacks the quality I personally and most of my customers seek.

Suits come in a wide range of qualities, but you need to know personally what definition of "quality" you're using before buying a suit. Is it "quality" in terms of texture and design? Or is it about durability and strength? If you continue to purchase items based solely on numbers or labels you could end up spending a lot more money and feeling disappointed very often.

Article on the Number Game with Paolo Zegna (pay close attention to the last sentence)

https://www.ravistailor.com/news.php?ItemNo=123

Article on Wool and Super Numbers

Perhaps the best article on why I would take experience over a label

https://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06317/738034-314.stm

Gentleman and Teacher, thank you for your time.

Cheers!

Lord R Colton
 
#33 · (Edited)
Welcome to AAAC Lord Colton,

I appreciate that you've posted here to try and clear things up and protect your reputation. You seem to care about customer service and should be commended for that. Nevertheless, as much as you would like to frame the issue in more favorable terms by suggesting that the problem is one of customer satisfaction rather than deceptive ad copy, all I can say is nice try but it ain't working.

The fact remains that you advertised the suit as S120 and claimed it has a retail value of over $2,000. Those two claims are demonstrably false given that ALL Canali S120s coats are clearly marked as such on the tags and NO canali suits, S120 or higher, retail for more than $2,000. As an "expert", you should know this. You can try and obfuscate the issue by posting articles by Manton and others but it won't change the fact that you seem to play fast and loose with your auction copy.

If I were you, I would cut my losses and acknowledge my error rather than try and fight and losing battle.
 
#34 ·
I browsing eBay and came across this Canali jacket you are selling and which you seem to claim sells for $2,395, which it most certainly does not. If you can provide any evidence to support this claim, I will gladly withdraw all my comments. Until then, you are just another eBay seller who inflates MSRP and hypes auctions with unsubstantiated claims.
 
#35 ·
Ah, LordRColton...I was wondering when you would post.

You can assail me all you want, but it will not draw me or other astute thinkers away from the fact that you misstated facts. Your posting, which I have read very, very carefully, is intentionally misleading, to say the least. I and many others are tired of eBay swindlers like you. And no, I have not added actual information about the suit because I am not pretending to know things that I can not prove. As to being an expert: I don't care who mentored you...I'd like to know how you can identify the supers number based on feel and sight. If you can accurately do that, you have a very special ability indeed.
 
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#36 ·
To Lord Colton...

You bring back wonderful memories. Harry Mansbach was an old family friend and business associate of my grandparents. He personally measured me for my Bar Mitzvah suit! A Walter Morton (remember those days?)...

But coming from a family background in the clothing industry and from my own product awareness, I do have some concerns at, as an example, this Zegna suit



It carries a pre-2004 jacket tag, and is a main-line sartorial line garment. Even with the price increases this fall, a Trofeo suit would be $2495 +/- depending upon the fabric level. One would expect prices in the $4500 range in the Couture line. My sense of style and knowledge of the line came from living for a number of years in Toronto where another Harry was my exemplar-- Harry Rosen.

As one who drops in and out of forums and who does buy and sell via eBay, in addition to the occasional foray into Nieman Marcus, I do appreciate your participation but must at least in the above case raise a question.
 
Discussion starter · #37 · (Edited)
I thought I'd put a finish on this thread.

I still don't know whether my suit is S120 or not, but I have decided to keep it. It fits well, looks good, and the hand is nice but not great.

This seller continues to list ebay items worded approximately equivalent to wording from my suit, so I think it is a template that sometimes misses the actual facts of the individual item for sale. And I continue to see claims of Super 120s in the TITLE of some listings and find there is not a tag in the suit or coat to substantiate this claim.

This seller gave me neutral feedback in retaliation for my neutral to him. Why do I say retaliation? Because I paid for this suit within an hour of winning it, and presented him no problems other than leaving him a neutral feeback and calling attention to the unsubstantiated S120 claim. Here was his feedback to me: "SUIT AS STATED, CLAIMS PROVEN, UNINFORMED CONSUMER, ASK QUESTIONS BEFORE BIDDING". To me, that is the last straw. The word "a$$hole" seems appropriate to describe the author of that feedback, but I of course would never use that word in a civil public forum.

In the end I have a nice suit that I probably paid $75 too much for as the bidding below me, and mine anticipated the value of an S120 fabric that was highlighted in the title of this listing. And in the end I've had too much contact with a seller who now seems distasteful to me.

I wish Mr. Colton the best, but wish even more that he would learn that shoddy ethics do not pay in the end... certainly not in this case. I have probably been more of a hassle to him than 10x the extra $75 in his pocket from the S120 claim will ever be worth.
 
#38 · (Edited)
This seller is full of cr*p!

He continually tells half truths, non truths, and obfuscates.

Here he is advertising a piece of garbage Polo University suit as an $895 Ralph Lauren Polo Super 100s suit.

Polo University is garbage that has an MSRP of ~$300 and is available at places like Marshalls for $100 NWT.

Here's his Ebay listing for his $895 Super 100 Polo University suit:

Well, some "Lucky" bidder won this beauty for $9.99. That's about what it's worth.

Also note that The Lord has a feedback rating of 98.6%. As experienced Ebayers know, that is not a good score for a bulk seller. He has 10 Negatives and Neutrals just in the last month. I hope he didn't retaliate against each of them like he did to dunninLA, but he probably did.

Herei s his toolhaus.org profile. This pretty much tells it all Re: lordrcolton.:

https://toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User=lordrcolton&Dirn=Received+by
 
#39 ·
The following post is a statement of opinion only and should not be taken as an assertion of fact. Facts may differ from those stated below.

As far as I'm concerned he's a fine-print sleaze.

He says: "100% Super 100's virgin wool."

There's nothing in the photos to say it really is a Super 100's.

OK, so maybe it is and maybe it isn't. But

Super numbers and "off the rack" size numbers are included as a guide and are not always listed with a label. We take pictures of all labels on the interior of the item. These number are suggested based on experience and expertise...

By bidding on this item, you agree to these our terms and forfeit all right to dispute them post transaction.
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(My bold)

In other words, if it's not Super 100's, he can nonetheless say, "but my experience told me it was" - and that last sentence purports to give him an out.

And this - which may or may not be a 110 or 120, as both are used in the description, but as before, no photographic evidence, and to my inexpert eyes it looks like an orphan jacket and not a sport coat either...
 
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