[Aaronsav]

Hello to all.

Recently I have started to develop an interest in vintage fashions styles and particularly those of the 1930s and 1940s. both in Britain and the US. This has coincided with a hobby of mine which is Swing dancing the Lindy Hop, Collegiate Shag, Balboa and Charleston.

All this has led me to various events that are focused on the 1940s and feature period correct entertainment with big bands and a celebration of the Jazz Swing era. Dressing up in period is encouraged and great fun.

All of which leads me to my question. Actual vintage is quite difficult to find and often pricey when it is. There are plenty of 1980s suits around that are double breasted but the cut, whilst evocative of the earlier period, isn't right.

I have found some vintage designs and patterns on the web and they look to be a good choice, but the question is what to make it from.

I find lots of advice saying that vintage suits were made with natural fabrics and heavier fabrics but nothing that states what the weights were. Wool and Twill seem to be popular along with flannel but I have no idea what weights to use. As a dancer I want something that hangs right, but not necessarily so hot that I roast on the dance floor. Modern central heating should be considered.

Are there any historians in the group that would be able to share their knowledge about fabric weights, for men's suits with vintage designs? What I am looking at is the classic single pleat front trouser with a higher waist, fishtail back, turned up at the heel, and worn with over the shoulder braces. That along with a double breasted peak lapel jacket, 6 buttons (3 either side), with the middle one usually done up whilst standing. What weight and material would get the right vintage look and be comfortable to dance in?

 

[mlenecare]

I'm sure Flanderian will post at some point with a beautifully worded, in depth explanation.
Untill then I will venture a guess based on different things I have read. I think that there was some "tropical" weight wool somewhere around 250 gsm in the 1940s. I think regularly worsted was mostly 350+ with some heavy worsted and flannels being in the 500 gsm range.
Many of the English wool mills are still producing heavy worsted wool in the 400-500 range.

This may not be correct, but this is the general impression I have formed.

 

[Aaronsav]

I'm sure Flanderian will post at some point with a beautifully worded, in depth explanation.
Untill then I will venture a guess based on different things I have read. I think that there was some "tropical" weight wool somewhere around 250 gsm in the 1940s. I think regularly worsted was mostly 350+ with some heavy worsted and flannels being in the 500 gsm range.
Many of the English wool mills are still producing heavy worsted wool in the 400-500 range.

This may not be correct, but this is the general impression I have formed.

Thank you that is a great help to me.

 

[Flanderian]

I'm sure Flanderian will post at some point with a beautifully worded, in depth explanation.
Untill then I will venture a guess based on different things I have read. I think that there was some "tropical" weight wool somewhere around 250 gsm in the 1940s. I think regularly worsted was mostly 350+ with some heavy worsted and flannels being in the 500 gsm range.
Many of the English wool mills are still producing heavy worsted wool in the 400-500 range.

This may not be correct, but this is the general impression I have formed.

Thank you, that's very flattering, but I'm really not that knowledgeable. To say I know a little bit about a fairly broad variety of sartorial topics is more realistic. For example, member Matt S tends to have much more in-depth information.

Hello to all.

Recently I have started to develop an interest in vintage fashions styles and particularly those of the 1930s and 1940s. both in Britain and the US. This has coincided with a hobby of mine which is Swing dancing the Lindy Hop, Collegiate Shag, Balboa and Charleston.

All this has led me to various events that are focused on the 1940s and feature period correct entertainment with big bands and a celebration of the Jazz Swing era. Dressing up in period is encouraged and great fun.

All of which leads me to my question. Actual vintage is quite difficult to find and often pricey when it is. There are plenty of 1980s suits around that are double breasted but the cut, whilst evocative of the earlier period, isn't right.

I have found some vintage designs and patterns on the web and they look to be a good choice, but the question is what to make it from.

I find lots of advice saying that vintage suits were made with natural fabrics and heavier fabrics but nothing that states what the weights were. Wool and Twill seem to be popular along with flannel but I have no idea what weights to use. As a dancer I want something that hangs right, but not necessarily so hot that I roast on the dance floor. Modern central heating should be considered.

Are there any historians in the group that would be able to share their knowledge about fabric weights, for men's suits with vintage designs? What I am looking at is the classic single pleat front trouser with a higher waist, fishtail back, turned up at the heel, and worn with over the shoulder braces. That along with a double breasted peak lapel jacket, 6 buttons (3 either side), with the middle one usually done up whilst standing. What weight and material would get the right vintage look and be comfortable to dance in?

My recollection is that suiting would range between 16oz - 22oz a yard, with heavier special purpose cloth such as thorn proof tweeds. In the days when mass transport was how everyone traveled, and before universal central heating, especially in a then cooler, and damper Britain, these weights were perfect for men's needs.

But now the caveats begin: I think your project sounds great, I admire men and women who can dance, and swing dancing is beautiful and great fun. (And a heck of a workout!) But there are some considerations of which you may wish to be aware before beginning.

First, fine quality vintage and modern suiting cloth is not directly comparable because, contrary to nostalgia, modern technology can produce higher quality fine quality cloth. Of course, technology also allows faster production of inferior cloth, which is why I specified fine quality cloth. It can be sorted, spun, woven and finished to a quality which will exceed that of vintage cloth.

Secondly, just buying any 20oz cloth will not allow you to make the vintage garments of decent quality. And buying fine quality suiting cloth in any weight will cost a pretty penny.

Thirdly, (And if you're a tailor, please disregard.) making a men's suit that fits and looks good isn't an easy process. Trousers are much easier than jackets.

If you still wish to proceed, I might suggest you look at a twill cloth for your purposes. Not only does it tend to have some built in stretch and wrinkle resistance, but it moves and flows beautifully when you dance. Which is something that flannel or tweed will not do.

There's a trick you can do for trousers which used to be common in fine tailoring. There are tiny weights that you can add to the cuff/turn-ups of traditional trousers. Haven't seen it done recently, but believe you may still be able to find them from a tailoring supply house, and they may still also be found to be used in weighting the hem of a lady's skirt. Its purpose is that it will make the trousers hang better when worn, and also add to the movement as you dance.

For a good appreciation/guide of what's entailed in making a suit, I would recommend the book Classic Tailoring Techniques by Roberto Cabrera if you can find a copy. It offers excellent diagrams and photos, and understandable, step by step instruction.

Happy dancing! :beer:

 

[mlenecare]

Flanderian,
I'm sure you don't know everything and I appreciate your modesty. I may have more accurately described your contributions had I replaced "in depth" with "insightful".
Either way, thanks for the knowledge you share.
Hope my nose didn't get brown.

 

[Flanderian]

Flanderian,
I'm sure you don't know everything and I appreciate your modesty. I may have more accurately described your contributions had I replaced "in depth" with "insightful".
Either way, thanks for the knowledge you share.
Hope my nose didn't get brown.

Thank you yet again! :beer:

 

[Charles Dana]

Aaronsav--

You might also want to pose your question in a clothing discussion forum called The Fedora Lounge. Many of the members there are walking encyclopedias of vintage fashions and fabrics.

Check it out; you'll see that it isn't about just hats--lots of discussions over there about suits of the 1930s and '40s.

 

[Peak and Pine]

Fabric weight is most noticeable to the wearer, not always to the viewer, not in the weights you're talking about. Consider buying ready-made, lotta places on line sell mid-century vintage, expensive you say, but less than made-from scratch. The metal weights @Flanderian writes of, similar are used for drapes, buy at a fabric store, or thick washers from a hardware store. Cannot be further helpful since my dance, The Monkey, does not require special clothing.

 

[Aaronsav]

My recollection is that suiting would range between 16oz - 22oz a yard, with heavier special purpose cloth such as thorn proof tweeds. In the days when mass transport was how everyone traveled, and before universal central heating, especially in a then cooler, and damper Britain, these weights were perfect for men's needs.

That is excellent information and I think you have hit on the central point in my question which is wonderful

But now the caveats begin: I think your project sounds great, I admire men and women who can dance, and swing dancing is beautiful and great fun. (And a heck of a workout!)

Thank you, I've been learning for a couple of years and love it. Now is the time I feel ready to step out into public view but want to look my best. I need something that looks the part and will stand up to the movement. A lot of actual vintage garments probably don't deserve the pummelling they would receive on a dance floor and may not survive if they did. Modern repros look like they pay lip service to either construction or quality. I have started to think that the term 'theatrical reproduction' might be the best way to look at it. The end result is designed to be seen albeit by an audience who are as immersed as I am in the event.

First, fine quality vintage and modern suiting cloth is not directly comparable because, contrary to nostalgia, modern technology can produce higher quality fine quality cloth. Of course, technology also allows faster production of inferior cloth, which is why I specified fine quality cloth. It can be sorted, spun, woven and finished to a quality which will exceed that of vintage cloth.

Secondly, just buying any 20oz cloth will not allow you to make the vintage garments of decent quality. And buying fine quality suiting cloth in any weight will cost a pretty penny.

Clearly they are important distinctions and I will definitely keep them in mind.

Thirdly, (And if you're a tailor, please disregard.) making a men's suit that fits and looks good isn't an easy process. Trousers are much easier than jackets.

In this area I do have some assistance. My wife makes her own clothes and understands the concepts of garment creation. What she lacks is an appreciation of the vintage fabric and weight, how this applies to constriction techniques for men's garments and comparing then to now. We are both researching that. She hasn't made men's garments before but is comfortable that her existing skills transfer across.
I must say that the 'sewing room' she assembled in our house certainly looks the part with accessories that arrive in a never ending stream of deliveries from Ebay and Amazon. I should add that she is also looking at making her own swing outfits from the period as well. Oddly enough there is more information for ladies to recreate the look than there is gentlemen.

I will assist in any way she deems me able and have various homework and practice assignments allocated to me that develops the skills.

The sites which have proved most useful tend to be the ones where theatrical seamstresses and tailors create costumes for lavish productions such as Broadway and West End because they account for movement. The difference is that the audience is more remote and so the choice of fabric isn't always considered, just the look from a distance. I am after something that will pass close up. Perhaps more akin to a TV or film production.

I have just realised that I may sound quite pompous and apologise if I do. It is my enthusiasm for the subject and period that is brimming over.

If you still wish to proceed, I might suggest you look at a twill cloth for your purposes. Not only does it tend to have some built in stretch and wrinkle resistance, but it moves and flows beautifully when you dance. Which is something that flannel or tweed will not do.

That really is excellent advice and thank you for it.

There are tiny weights that you can add to the cuff/turn-ups of traditional trousers. Haven't seen it done recently, but believe you may still be able to find them from a tailoring supply house, and they may still also be found to be used in weighting the hem of a lady's skirt. Its purpose is that it will make the trousers hang better when worn, and also add to the movement as you dance.

Thank you for the excellent tip. We actually had encountered this one, but it is great to have it confirmed that we are on the right track. Apparently small denomination coins is a classic way to do it sewn into a strip of interlacing fabric which is then inserted into the turn up cuff. Apparently Princess Dianna of Wales used this trick to make her skirts and dresses hang better and to also mitigate the press attaining an 'upskirt' photo of her whilst on state occasions.

For a good appreciation/guide of what's entailed in making a suit, I would recommend the book Classic Tailoring Techniques by Roberto Cabrera if you can find a copy. It offers excellent diagrams and photos, and understandable, step by step instruction.

I had encountered this on a search on e-bay and wondered if it was the real deal or an overpriced dud. Your confirmation has persuaded me to purchase it. Thank you for such a full answer which has left me most grateful.

All the best

Aaron
Happy dancing! :beer:

 

[Aaronsav]

Aaronsav--

You might also want to pose your question in a clothing discussion forum called The Fedora Lounge. Many of the members there are walking encyclopedias of vintage fashions and fabrics.

Check it out; you'll see that it isn't about just hats--lots of discussions over there about suits of the 1930s and '40s.

Thank you I have just registered and will seek further knowledge there.

 

[Aaronsav]

Fabric weight is most noticeable to the wearer, not always to the viewer, not in the weights you're talking about. Consider buying ready-made, lotta places on line sell mid-century vintage, expensive you say, but less than made-from scratch. The metal weights @Flanderian writes of, similar are used for drapes, buy at a fabric store, or thick washers from a hardware store. Cannot be further helpful since my dance, The Monkey, does not require special clothing.

I can certainly appreciate that view and have considered it, but my concern is that modern reproduction either skimp on quality or construction to make the price bracket and may not stand up to the pummelling it gets on the dance floor.

Similarly with actual vintage, I would be bereft if I purchased something that had survived for 80- odd years and then destroyed it during a particularly energetic set.

I think my particular requirement is a bit of a hybrid. It is possibly more akin to a theatrical or film reproduction garment, where it needs to consider movement as well as look right at short distance.

I completely take your point about cost but we are planning on making these from classic patterns using my wife's existing accomplished dressmaking skills to transfer across. She is also making dance outfits for her, but lacks the knowledge on men's fabrics, hence my research and plea to those like yourself with superior knowledge.

Your monkey dance sounds awesome and a spectacle to behold BTW .

Thank you for sharing your thoughts which I greatly appreciate.