[Vecchio Vespa]

Flanderian posits that during the Trad era there was more experimentation than you might have thought. I agree. Of course I am assuming that Virginia in the decade 1955-1965 was experiencing the Trad era. I remember classmates embracing white jeans in the springtime, even at the risk of demerits. I remember guys cutting down their Weejuns to make sandals (only to have Bass release them as Sunjuns). And of course it would be hard to call GTH pants anything other than experimentation, especially Lily Pulitzer. I remember Trads jumping on the Reynaud wraparound fad. There were a few ties I’d call experimental but if you wore one you’d get ridiculed. Rooster and Countess Mara come to mind. There were definitely experiments with after shaves and colognes, like English Leather and Jade East, but I think of Jade East more as bad judgment than experimentation. Anyone thing of any other examples of Trad experimentation?

 

[Fading Fast]

I'd argue, that Japan's subculture of Ivy today is the natural progression of Trad experimentation you describe from Virginia in the '60s.

 

[Adriel Rowley]

[...] There were definitely experiments with after shaves and colognes, like English Leather [...]

What? I found an unopened bottle of English Leather amongst Opa's dresser top items and took it because the name was an oddity, too special to use up. Now interesting to find out it is over 50 years old, no wonder the label fell off when came from humid California to dry Arizona. Wonder how many are still around?

As to experimentation, think was even allowed in the '30s and '40s looking at the Apparel Arts Flanderian pages he posts, with wild patterns, colours, buttonings, and lapel widths. Allows me to be okay with not wearing the "correct" width lapel and more importantly, has inspired me to experiment.

So what happened after '65 to cause the end of experimentation?

 

[FLMike]

So what happened after '65 to cause the end of experimentation?

Reading this sentence alone, without the context (Trad clothing), would cause many folks to scratch their heads. I assure you that (while I wasn't alive yet) there was plenty of experimentation after '65. Ever heard of Ken Kesey? The Merry Pranksters? The Grateful Dead? :devil::rock:

 

[Adriel Rowley]

Reading this sentence alone, without the context (Trad clothing), would cause many folks to scratch their heads. I assure you that (while I wasn't alive yet) there was plenty of experimentation after '65. Ever heard of Ken Kesey? The Merry Pranksters? The Grateful Dead? :devil::rock:

And neither was I alive.

How about the Electric Prunes, Hot Butter, Janis, or Jimi regarding musical experimentation too? Love the musical experimentation of early rock and roll.

 

[Vecchio Vespa]

What? I found an unopened bottle of English Leather amongst Opa's dresser top items and took it because the name was an oddity, too special to use up. Now interesting to find out it is over 50 years old, no wonder the label fell off when came from humid California to dry Arizona. Wonder how many are still around?

As to experimentation, think was even allowed in the '30s and '40s looking at the Apparel Arts Flanderian pages he posts, with wild patterns, colours, buttonings, and lapel widths. Allows me to be okay with not wearing the "correct" width lapel and more importantly, has inspired me to experiment.

So what happened after '65 to cause the end of experimentation?

Actually post 1965 it seemed there was much more experimentation. In the early '60s we really dressed as if we were in uniforms, and no one varied much. It was a very unforgiving era for anyone who tried to break out of the mold!

 

[Adriel Rowley]

Actually post 1965 it seemed there was much more experimentation. In the early '60s we really dressed as if we were in uniforms, and no one varied much. It was a very unforgiving era for anyone who tried to break out of the mold!

So, if understand correctly, Trad was experimental until traditional started experimenting?

 

[Dragoon]

My dad used to slap on some English Leather after his Sunday morning getting ready for church shave. I don’t recollect it smelling bad.

 

[Charles Dana]

So, if understand correctly, Trad was experimental until traditional started experimenting?

Not exactly. It's not that the clothing category we are calling "Trad" was experimental. Rather, there was some experimentation within the "Trad" category.

After 1967, men's fashions in general started becoming more exuberant. "Trad" and non-"Trad" conservative business attire never went away, but by around 1970 those styles were getting eclipsed to some degree by the popularity of two-button sport coats and suits; shirts that had long point collars, vivid stripes, and colors beyond the usual white and blue; polyester double-knit fabrics, many with very bold patterns; flared trousers; etc.

 

[London380sl]

The things you can learn on the internet. I just googled English Leather and found out it was released in 1949! Jade East was released in 1964. Both are still available.
English Leather was pretty popular in the early seventies when I was a teen. Vaguely remembered Jade East but nobody I knew then wore it.

 

[Fading Fast]

This stuff can get circular, but I think what happened in America is that Trad had consolidated itself in the '50s (versus the wide open '30s that had still operated within a pretty modern suit-shirt-tie construct) with experimentation, in the early-to-mid '60s, being at the edges in things like tie, lapel, sleeve width, etc.

Once the late '60s made Trad no longer mainstream (look at what TV news anchors and talk-show hosts, as examples, were wearing by the early '70s - sure they were suits, ties and shirts, but hardly in the Trad ethos), experimentation within Trad was thwarted.

In a way, at that point in America, there was no meaning to "experimenting" in Trad, as experimentation in Trad clothes (Trad's suit-shirt-tie construct) had jumped the shark and become the loud, exaggerated clothes of the '70s. This, I think, forced Trad into a stasis as its practitioners - many of whom were getting older - just tried to hold on.

However, over in Japan (if what I've read is correct - I am not holding myself out as an expert, just as someone who reads about this stuff), Trad / Ivy was never fully mainstream, but always had an active and younger base before, during and after the '70s. Thus, within that subculture, experimentation remained popular as it didn't feel displaced by the changes of the late-'60, as American Trad/Ivy did.

To summarize, after the late '60s, Trad in America was a rear-guard action by a subset of the population that was, IMHO, stung by the rapid decline in the popularity of its style, which made it defensive / not offensive (not experimental). Whereas, in Japan, American Trad was never the dominate form of dress that it was in America, so it continued on as a vibrant and experimental subculture even as mainstream styles and tastes changed.

 

[Adriel Rowley]

The things you can learn on the internet. I just googled English Leather and found out it was released in 1949! Jade East was released in 1964. Both are still available.
English Leather was pretty popular in the early seventies when I was a teen. Vaguely remembered Jade East but nobody I knew then wore it.

I swear I looked back Summer of '14 and no information. Again, the internet. Thank you for correcting and informing.

 

[Vecchio Vespa]

So, if understand correctly, Trad was experimental until traditional started experimenting?

All I have knowledge of is my own era. In matters of clothing we were not very experimental. No one had a personal style. In winter eVeryone wore a herringbone or a blazer, a repp tie, a button down, and Weejuns. No exceptions. It was as if we had received an advance printing of the Official Preppy Handbook and took it seriously. We really weren't even very experimental in other areas until psychedelia and other social forces took hold. Four Tops, Beach Boys, and the like musically. Kind of sad.

 

[Adriel Rowley]

Not exactly. It's not that the clothing category we are calling "Trad" was experimental. Rather, there was some experimentation within the "Trad" category.

After 1967, men's fashions in general started becoming more exuberant. "Trad" and non-"Trad" conservative business attire never went away, but by around 1970 those styles were getting eclipsed to some degree by the popularity of two-button sport coats and suits; shirts that had long point collars, vivid stripes, and colors beyond the usual white and blue; polyester double-knit fabrics, many with very bold patterns; flared trousers; etc.

Thank you Charles for explaining and clarifying.

Ah, so as a new exuberant subset came about Trad moved into obscurity. Is that why the collegiate changed to being for stodgy Professors?

Know of those fashions as was a connoisseur and have vintage pieces of Opa's. As understand, this exuberance was caused by a culture shift caused by "Hippies" and eventually was accepted as mainstream (ex. bellbottoms which only "Hippies" wear to flares which are worn by the conservatively dressed).

 

[Vecchio Vespa]

My dad used to slap on some English Leather after his Sunday morning getting ready for church shave. I don't recollect it smelling bad.

I kind of like it, but it isn't a scent for those wishing to be inconspicuous!

 

[Fading Fast]

I kind of like it, but it isn't a scent for those wishing to be inconspicuous!

My dad slapped on Skin Brace (by Mennon - remember the giggle?) after shaving and that was it for him - no cologne, etc. While it was a bit strong when it first went on, it faded quickly. I just checked, they are still making that stuff - $5 for a 7oz bottle (adjusted for inflation, that sounds about right as it wasn't expensive).

 

[Peak and Pine]

So what happened after '65 to cause the end of experimentation?

That would be the Viet Nam war and the arrival of British music and style. The crap American music scene collapsed. Picture Connie Francis singing I Can't Get No Satisfaction? America followed, see Buffalo Springfield and the Byrds. The Brits brought long hair and fabulous dress. We added pot and protest. My crew cut went and never came back. Did not burn the flag, but would have, burned madras instead. A strong reason I cannot stand trad, its connotations with the War and those who brung it. Friends died there, today I have a shirt made there.

 

[Adriel Rowley]

That would be the Viet Nam war and the arrival of British music and style. The crap American music scene collapsed. Picture Connie Francis singing I Can't Get No Satisfaction? America followed, see Buffalo Springfield and the Byrds. The Brits brought long hair and fabulous dress. We added pot and protest. My crew cut went and never came back. Did not burn the flag, but would have, burned madras instead. A strong reason I cannot stand trad, its connotations with the War and those who brung it. Friends died there, today I have a shirt made there.

First, glad to see you back Peak! :amazing:

Ah, the British Invasion in '64 with Beetles "I want to Hold Your Hand".

Just so you know, I only enjoy and listen to rock and roll from about '58 to '78, with a few exceptions before and after. Some of the early I can't stand, though Fats and Buddy are some of my favorites that instantly come to mind. Elvis spans it all, though a few can't stand (acapella and folk are more my favorites as goes from performer to artist). Then I have a plethora of favorites, American and British, including bands and solo artists after breakups, from electric (especially when using wall of sound), psychedelic, folk, and classic (such as the theme song from "2001 Space Odyssey). For a while even looked like a hippy much to Oma's delight (huge full beard, hair almost to my waist, and bellbottoms).

Interesting music affects men's sartorial clothing. Now that mention, after the mid to later half of the '60s, hair goes wild as so do the sartorial and widths.

Oh, by the way, the Beetles' haircuts were actually the fashion in Germany where they had made success. I had one of those cuts back in Middle School when growing out my hair to donate (my passport from 2004 had it thus why remember).

Why burn madras?

How is Trad associated with Nam? Because the people that killed 60,000 people by forcing them to fight in a senseless war wore Trad?

Honestly, sorry you had to go over there and lost your friends. Have family that went through that hell so seen some of the affects. Thank God the draft is dead.

 

[Peak and Pine]

^

Adriel, afraid I have to leave what I said at what I said. But an interesting post by you, as most of yours are. You are a patient man. Couple of minor additions to our back-and-forth. I did not go. Was prepared to, there was no lottery, everyone I knew was called. But because I have a certain, minor medical condition, I was passed over. Much to my surprise. And in-the-moment delight. Then guilt. Then piss-worthy atonement by war protesting where ever I could find cardboard, stick, felt marker and a couple of simpatico friends. Usually girls. The guys had all gone.

Adriel, it's Beatles, not Beetles. Beatles you listen to, beetles you eat. Or I do. On occasion. What's termed Trad here and elsewhere is thought by me to be more properly positioned as Eisenhower era fashion. I was very much alive during its original run, but it has connotations of a dark time though I have no objection to the latter day discovery by a younger set.

 

[Adriel Rowley]

^

Adriel, afraid I have to leave what I said at what I said. But an interesting post by you, as most of yours are. You are a patient man. Couple of minor additions to our back-and-forth. I did not go. Was prepared to, there was no lottery, everyone I knew was called. But because I have a certain, minor medical condition, I was passed over. Much to my surprise. And in-the-moment delight. Then guilt. Then piss-worthy atonement by war protesting where ever I could find cardboard, stick, felt marker and a couple of simpatico friends. Usually girls. The guys had all gone.

Adriel, it's Beatles, not Beetles. Beatles you listen to, beetles you eat. Or I do. On occasion. What's termed Trad here and elsewhere is thought by me to be more properly positioned as Eisenhower era fashion. I was very much alive during its original run, but it has connotations of a dark time though I have no objection to the latter day discovery by a younger set.

Peak, why afraid when you answered all the questions which you didn't have to do.

I hope my posts aren't too interesting; still working on not saying too much.

Thank you for the clarifications.

I know it is the Beatles... only excuse is spellcheck and again on here trying to kill time when having a flareup. Beatles because of beat.

Okay, as I understand you mean traditional and not Eastern collegiate style.