[JLibourel]

How dismal to even consider choosing a "uniform"! Variety is the spice of life, as the saying goes. Were I working in suited environment, I'd want an assortment of solids, pinstripes, chalk stripes, glen plaids, maybe even a few muted windowpanes in various fabrics and weights. Of course, I would want a large assortment of neckties, pocket squares and shirts, but, hey, I've got all of the latter items. Dressing well should be fun--at least so it has been for me, especially in the latter years of my working career.

 

[MikeDT]

Unless the high net individuals are cadavers, skip the black.

LOL.

 

[Jovan]

At the recent career fair here, I'd guess that 80-90 percent of the undergrad young men who came wore black suits. That said, I would be surprised if undergrads, car service drivers, and restaurant waitstaff make up half of aggregate suit demand.

Yep, same here at UF. They beautifully demonstrated all the drawbacks of the black suit that I listed. Among the eyesores were dark red/blue/purple and black shirts along with ugly printed yellow and silver ties. Not sure what they were looking to get hired as besides an undertaker or extra for The Matrix. It smacks of inexperience and youth (in a bad way) and not someone who's really serious about entering a career. Maybe that's a little harsh, but these kids really need someone to steer them in right direction when shopping at the local Penney's.

I'll give allowances for funerals and maybe wearing at night, but to me the drawbacks far outweigh the benefits of having a black suit. I'm saying this as someone who seven years ago wanted a black suit and nothing else, even when the salesperson tried to steer me toward charcoal or navy. (he was right) Better to wear other dark colours that are more versatile, both in terms of when they can be worn and what can be worn with them. The only black suit in many a well dressed gentleman's wardrobe is a dinner suit a.k.a. tuxedo.

 

[Regillus]

1. Skip the black suit.

2. What advantage do you gain by further limiting your options with your own personal "uniform?" I mean, how does denying yourself the option of wearing navy pinstripe suits, or light blue shirts, or pin dot ties, benefit you?

--
Michael

Agreed.

+1. Did this at one point, in my case three navy 2B suits, and was asked more than once "Do you own, like, more than one of those?" I stayed with dark suits and white shirts (easier to get dressed half asleep) but got a grey, muted pinstripe, muted plaid, charcoal blue, etc.

I too once wore a lot of navy blue. Got the same question.

Except for evening clothes, no black suit, ever, not even funerals.
Don't.

You might want to think of your "uniform" as a rotation among a half dozen well-fitting business suits, each one of which is distinct from the others. That way you will be noticed, if at all, as the young man who is always nicely dressed.

Please keep your shoes well polished. No matter how well dressed you are, it will reflect badly on you if your shoes look scruffy.

Regards,
Gurdon

Yes and yes.

I would suggest that instead of a "uniform" i.e. "always the same" appearance I think you should go for a genre of navy and charcoal suits in solid colors and muted pinstripes. Perhaps a seersucker and a pincord for summer. Tie AND pocket square. Show your HNW clients that you are knowledgeable about style thereby standing out from the many who don't. You'll get noticed as the well-dressed guy who gets the sartorial details right.

 

[Kelorth]

BlackSuits

Unless the high net individuals are cadavers, skip the black.

My brother is a Funeral Director and the regulatory/licensing organization for them advises never to wear black suits or ties. That color is reserved for mourning family and friends. So unless you want me to make 100 posts real fast, no more comments about undertakers with black suits...lol

Normally he wears solid or simple pattern suits (in charcoal, gray and navy), conservative shirts (white, light blue, stripes), somber ties (solids. dots, stripes, etc) with black and brown shoes to deal with customers.

So maybe, a uniform is required after all.

BTW, since you are in Houston check out this article from ASW:

https://asuitablewardrobe.dynend.com/2011/09/suits-in-endless-summer.html

 

[Kelorth]

Forgot to add, is the black suit controversy mainly an Anglo-American issue? I deal with lots of German, Latin Americans, and even Italians and everyone wears black suits. This has never been an issue until I came to AAAC.

 

[Grayson]

Kelorth, you have approached the territory of the last hold-outs of the truly well-dressed. I recommend you not expect most of us to be without strong opinions about what looks good or is proper clothing, whether or no everyone else is doing it. If we were about following norms, this forum wouldn't exist.

 

[CuffDaddy]

I'm sorry, but I find the idea risible. Different situations call for different clothes. Different messages are best delivered in different clothes. As noted above, if nothing else, your clients would likely come to believe that you only own one suit, and that you don it every time they are coming to see you. If this were an effective business strategy, sophisticated corporations would have adopted it long ago; yet even IBM, pre-collapse GM, and other hoary institutions known for conformity

On the other hand, David Byrne would approve. He said, "If you wear the same clothes all the time, people will remember you." (Or something similar to that.) Keep in mind that this was the clothing he was wearing all the time in those days:

 

[CuffDaddy]

The black suit issue has two components. One is a cultural/historical component, the other a practical and aesthetic component. The former is fading, the latter is not. I'll address them in turn.

First, the cultural component. In America, black suits have historically been the province of the lounge lizard, the nouveau riche, the eurotrash hustler, and the entertainer for about a century. In short, black suits were viewed as desclasse. Those in the upper classes did not wear them; those in the lower classes sometimes would, arguably out of ignorance. That has changed a bit recently, primarily (IMO) as a result of the loss of all sorts of traditional clothing norms. People wear things that would have been unthinkable 30 years ago, and the black suit is no exception. But if you get to a relatively conservative business environment, you will still see very few black suits in America.

Second, the practical and aesthetic components of the rule. Black is flattering on relatively few men. Those with black hair can do it (explaining the longtime popularity of black suits in Asia), but for most others, it makes them look washed out or overwhelmed by the contrast of their clothes. Worse, black makes almost any other color next to it look bright by comparison. Elementary school children sometimes notice this effect with crayons and begin outlining their colorings in heavy black lines. Unfortunately, in clothing, the same elementary-school effect persists, and almost color of tie or shirt becomes garish when combined with a black suit. The only thing that really works with a great expanse of black is white or grey - that's how evening clothes manage to be attractive, and why colored ties with tuxedos nearly always look juvenile. Unless you fancy the Blues Brothers look of black suit, white shirt, black tie, that makes a black suit almost unworkable during daylight hours.

As for the black suit's current popularity... well, there are all sorts of horrid things enjoying a moment of popularity. That doesn't make it a good idea.

 

[Bond St]

I see that my 'nothing wrong with black' post was quite controversial. I hope it was not too offensive to the fashion world.

For my own curiosity, here are some situations where clients contact us in interest of black suits for certain occasions. If not too troublesome, an explanation of why this is incorrect would be interesting; I would be happy to pass onto my future prospective clients:


1. Saturday night in 'the city,' going out with friends to a nice dinner/lounge/etc. Given the complexion of the person would work well with black, and that a suit, as opposed to other garb, is their first choice.

2. Weddings: we sell far more suits than tuxedos for grooms/groomsmen. Why is entirely different conversation. Grooms prefer the black suit over any other colour for the formality (my guess).


Why would a black suit be wrong for these situations? Please skip the limo driver jokes, already heard those lines in this thread. If you're going to mock, please make it witty and/or funny.

 

[12345Michael54321]

2. Weddings: we sell far more suits than tuxedos for grooms/groomsmen. Why is entirely different conversation. Grooms prefer the black suit over any other colour for the formality (my guess).

Why would a black suit be wrong for these situations?

I don't know that I can provide an answer as to why it's wrong at some fundamental level, but I can at least give you my personal take on it -

If a man is getting married, and wants to wear a black suit, over any other color, for the formality of it, I'd probably regard that black suit as a "pretend tuxedo." Because if it's an important event and you want a formal, black suit, it just strikes me that that's the definition of wanting a black tuxedo.

But choosing to wear something that's not a black tuxedo, but which is pretty much as similar to a black tuxedo as you can get, would seem to me like you're afraid to commit to wearing an actual tuxedo. And is a reluctance to commit really the impression a groom wants to give at his wedding?

There, now you have an explanation you can pass onto your future clients.
--
Michael

 

[CuffDaddy]

I see that my 'nothing wrong with black' post was quite controversial. I hope it was not too offensive to the fashion world.

Not offensive at all to the fashion world. Dubious, however, to men of classic style sensibilities (at least in America).

You have identified one of the categories in which the black suit can have some use, which is the evening social event. Few would argue that a black suit is inappropriate in that context, although many of the best dressed men opt for a dark navy under those circumstances.

As for the wedding, black has become a popular wedding color, but has been viewed by many commentators as being inappropriate, in that it is the color for a funeral. I was taught as a young man that wearing black to a funeral where one was not part of the wedding party could be construed as an insult, in that it might be viewed as stating that the marriage of one person to the other was a reason for grieving. That taboo seems to have faded, but it's still out there among some older and more tradition-minded folks. Tuxedos are black, but they are expressly celebratory. Morning coats can be black (though some shade of grey is more common), but those are leavened with striped or checked trousers. In my view, lots of people now choose black for wedding attire, but I think it ill-chosen. A small issue at such an important occassion, but still...

 

[Jake Genezen]

Since being a member on this forum, and reading the numerous debates on the subect, I haven't bought a black suit.

That aside, in relation to your questions:

1. Saturday night in 'the city,' going out with friends to a nice dinner/lounge/etc. Given the complexion of the person would work well with black, and that a suit, as opposed to other garb, is their first choice.

I do not see anything wrong with this: black suits look better in the evening light, and, of course, look (or can look) fabulous on people with 'winter' complexions. (I also disagree with the idea that everyone looks great in a black tuxedo - they don't.)

2. Weddings: we sell far more suits than tuxedos for grooms/groomsmen. Why is entirely different conversation. Grooms prefer the black suit over any other colour for the formality (my guess).

I can understand that people generally equate black attire (in the West, at least) with formality. However, and this may be down to personal preference, I'm unsure why one would want to wear such a colour on one's wedding day! If your customers are insistent on wearing black, and they are not a 'winter', then advise them buy charcoal. It will have the same effect as the black suit has on a winter. As Carole Jackson writes of a 'Summer' complexion:

'you can use dark charcoal suit to serve as black. Because of your relatively lighter colouring, this grey will look dark and authoritive on you [...] the impact of colour is relative within the season and works proportionately with your colouring' (1984, p. 55)

EDIT: Written and posted during the posting of the other responses.

 

[Jovan]

Weddings aren't cause for morose colours. (Unless it's a shotgun wedding.) Keep it tasteful, add a pop of colour. Consider a three piece suit.

Morning attire is proper for a wedding during the day. Black tie and white tie are reserved for evenings. After Six wasn't named so just because it sounded cool. (Although their taste level is rather questionable.)

 

[Kelorth]

The black suit issue has two components. One is a cultural/historical component, the other a practical and aesthetic component. The former is fading, the latter is not. I'll address them in turn.

First, the cultural component. In America, black suits have historically been the province of the lounge lizard, the nouveau riche, the eurotrash hustler, and the entertainer for about a century. In short, black suits were viewed as desclasse. Those in the upper classes did not wear them; those in the lower classes sometimes would, arguably out of ignorance. That has changed a bit recently, primarily (IMO) as a result of the loss of all sorts of traditional clothing norms. People wear things that would have been unthinkable 30 years ago, and the black suit is no exception. But if you get to a relatively conservative business environment, you will still see very few black suits in America.

Second, the practical and aesthetic components of the rule. Black is flattering on relatively few men. Those with black hair can do it (explaining the longtime popularity of black suits in Asia), but for most others, it makes them look washed out or overwhelmed by the contrast of their clothes. Worse, black makes almost any other color next to it look bright by comparison. Elementary school children sometimes notice this effect with crayons and begin outlining their colorings in heavy black lines. Unfortunately, in clothing, the same elementary-school effect persists, and almost color of tie or shirt becomes garish when combined with a black suit. The only thing that really works with a great expanse of black is white or grey - that's how evening clothes manage to be attractive, and why colored ties with tuxedos nearly always look juvenile. Unless you fancy the Blues Brothers look of black suit, white shirt, black tie, that makes a black suit almost unworkable during daylight hours.

As for the black suit's current popularity... well, there are all sorts of horrid things enjoying a moment of popularity. That doesn't make it a good idea.

Thank you for the reply, I can relate to certain wardrobe being inappropriate in one country and perfectly appropriate in another.

 

[Kelorth]

Kelorth, you have approached the territory of the last hold-outs of the truly well-dressed. I recommend you not expect most of us to be without strong opinions about what looks good or is proper clothing, whether or no everyone else is doing it. If we were about following norms, this forum wouldn't exist.

No offense meant, just a question. I know this is a very sensitive issue here...lol

 

[arkirshner]

I see that my 'nothing wrong with black' post was quite controversial. I hope it was not too offensive to the fashion world.

For my own curiosity, here are some situations where clients contact us in interest of black suits for certain occasions. If not too troublesome, an explanation of why this is incorrect would be interesting; I would be happy to pass onto my future prospective clients:

1. Saturday night in 'the city,' going out with friends to a nice dinner/lounge/etc. Given the complexion of the person would work well with black, and that a suit, as opposed to other garb, is their first choice.

2. Weddings: we sell far more suits than tuxedos for grooms/groomsmen. Why is entirely different conversation. Grooms prefer the black suit over any other colour for the formality (my guess).

Why would a black suit be wrong for these situations? Please skip the limo driver jokes, already heard those lines in this thread. If you're going to mock, please make it witty and/or funny.

The title "Fashion Forum" is a bit of a misnomer, as the focus of most of us here is style. Used here, style is the distillation of principles of traditional Anglo-American mens wear as established between the wars by the example of a set of aristocratic, or wealthy, or well know men who were generally accepted as the best dressed men in the world, of whom the duke of Windsor is the best known. It was a time of sartorial "trickle down".

Fashion, on the other hand is ephemeral. Fashion comes and goes, hot one year, cold soon after. The wide ties and lapels of the 70s, leisure suits, and Nehru jackets are some of the most notorious examples of fashion. Today fashion comes from the young ,and from designers who want, and need to be different.

Style evolves. The process has been compared with evolution, there are many fashion mutations and some survive. The leisure suit is an example of a failed mutation. The period between the wars was one that saw the evolution from the style that existed before WWI into what is now traditional Anglo American style. George V wore a frock coat. His son developed modern black tie, soft collared shirts and all. Introducing the elements of black tie was an example of fashion, but fashion that survived and became a part of the Anglo-American cannon.

There is nothing inherently wrong with black suits, indeed black was the tradition in the 19th century. But here black suits, and skinny suits, and short jacket suits that fail to completely cover the wearer's rear and low rise pants worn low on the hips are seen here as just fashion, fashion outside traditional Anglo-American style.

It is acknowledged here that black suits and black shirts are fine for clubbing. Some women like men in black, and being attractive to women is the very purpose of going clubbing. But effectiveness in attracting young women does not equate with style.

Again we are in an era of sartorial trickle down. That more black suits are worn at weddings does not equate with style, it is just popularity, a popularity that has trickled down from young singers and actors who wear whatever their stylists choose.
There is nothing "wrong" with a man wearing the choices of designers and stylists, eg black suits, any more than it be wrong for a man to hang throughout his house prints from the best selling artist of our times,Thomas Kincade.

I appreciate that you are a merchant and will do better selling what is popular. Fashion sells better than style. I see from your site that for a time you went to school in Ann Arbor. If during you time there you stopped in Van Boven's you saw a store that for the most part sold traditional men's wear. It is this traditional Anglo- American men's wear that is the heart and soul of this forum.

A final note. On your web site you purport to give advise as to what is, and what is not, correct wedding attire. My problem with your site is that you conflate fashion and style, popularity and tradition. Your advise is all fashion and popularity. That's OK if you make it clear that that is what you are doing. But you don't. The consequence is that a reader who is looking for the traditional ensemble will not find it clearly set out and will wind up with an ensemble more worthy of a prom night than a traditional wedding. Take a look at the Black Tie Guide website https://www.blacktieguide.com/ where it is clear, in a not judgmental way, what is traditional and what is fashion forward. Men may choose to wear whatever they want, for weddings and otherwise, but at the same time they have the right to know the difference between the fashion of the moment and the style of tradition.

 

[Bond St]

After reading the responses, some made me laugh, others made me cry. Alas, that is nature of putting yourself out there and asking for advice and opinions.

Arkirshner - I will again study how we market our traditional versus fashion forward apparel. My goal is to be correct, accurate, informative, and practical. Great reference to Van Boven in Ann Arbor - I do remember the store. I also remember not purchasing anything from there for at the time (college years living in a frat house), I believed their clothing to be 'old-fashioned' and not nearly fashion forward enough for a NY guy. Arrogance of youth.

As per the issue of tuxedo versus black suit for a wedding, in my personal taste, I would always opt for the tuxedo. This past weekend I attended a very elegant wedding that was 'black tie optional.' Much to my surprise, it was only myself wearing a tuxedo beyond the groom/groomsmen.

Thank you for all of the responses and thoughts and inputs. I really enjoy seeing other perspectives.

Justin

 

[CuffDaddy]

One other thought about "uniforms." Lots of movie costumers put characters in uniforms, and this often seems appealing, in that it creates some iconography for the character, makes them easy to recognize in low light scenes, can be used to contrast them with other characters dressed differently, etc. But we only have to put up with those characters for 1-3 hours.