Thoughts on this cord/moleskin combo?
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I agree.
Texturally they work fine, but the outfit is rather monochrome. If the waistcoat was another colour, perhaps yellow/doe, I think this would work better.
Or, if the tie was brighter or complimentary.
I'd wear a green HT SC with it, but as you all know, I wear a green HT SC almost everyday, anyway.
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3,715 Posts
I’m OK with the contrast between the vest and the trousers—both color-wise and texture-wise.
I’d change the necktie, though, so that there isn’t so much brown in the picture. Possibly one with a gold design—diagonal stripes, for example—on a navy blue background.
(I know you didn’t ask about the necktie. Sorry. Well...it’s a clothing forum.)
EDIT:
Looks like Flairball and I
Agree about the tie
I’d change the necktie, though, so that there isn’t so much brown in the picture. Possibly one with a gold design—diagonal stripes, for example—on a navy blue background.
(I know you didn’t ask about the necktie. Sorry. Well...it’s a clothing forum.)
EDIT:
Looks like Flairball and I
Agree about the tie
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2,131 Posts
A pale gold vest, a tattersall shirt and sporting motif tie. Top it off with a HT jacket.
G
Guest
·Nice! Lookin' good.
A perfectly handsome option to higher tonal contrast.
A perfectly handsome option to higher tonal contrast.
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178 Posts
To me that tie's knot is too big (material thickness) for the tab color. I'm also of the opinion that French cuffs rarely work without a jacket.
I'm with the others who think the contrast is too close.
And I don't mean to be rude, but without a jacket, this makes your hips look huge. I have big hips, and it's not something a man wants to emphasize.
You might need to let out the pants. The pleats appear to be opening. The right one appears completely open.
I'm with the others who think the contrast is too close.
And I don't mean to be rude, but without a jacket, this makes your hips look huge. I have big hips, and it's not something a man wants to emphasize.
You might need to let out the pants. The pleats appear to be opening. The right one appears completely open.
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8,586 Posts
I think the problem is more in the material than the fit. This problem is something I've dealt with in corduroy. It doesn't press all that well and it's difficult to get pleats to drape well with it.
Thank you for all the sharings so far. I have learned a lot from them.
I agree with the sentiment that the color of the tie could be improved upon by being more complimentary.
AlphaOmega, thank you for the candid observations. What I am striving to achieve is a combination of relatively casual fabrics and relatively formal silhouettes (although I have a number of knit ties which I guess doesn't align with this thought).
I agree that the tie fabric is thicker than would be ideal for a tab collar. I went with a knit tie because it is the most casual type of tie. I will try a wool tie that isn't a knit tie next time and see how it looks.
An (irrational) part of me really wants to have French cuffs. Partly because of the formality, and partly because of the option they provide to be just a little more interesting than a button cuff. I read numerous posts on AskAndy / Styleforum about this and decided at that time that wearing a vest sans jacket was a compromise of sorts. In between the camp that thinks French cuffs looks just fine with nothing tailored on top and the camp that thinks it only looks appropriate with a jacket. Personally, I like the way the French Cuffs look on this outfit. They are barely noticeable (due in part to the silk knots) but give a slightly more formal silhouette.
The observation of the hips being accentuated... I had not noticed that. Good eye. I can see how with the vest suppressing any billowing of the shirt, the flaring of the trousers begins to stand out more. I've pretty much committed myself to an aesthetic of wearing a trouser/vest combo sans jacket so I'm not sure if there is anything I can do about this since I don't plan on wearing a jacket most times. I'm all ears to any suggestions though.
My goal was to achieve a low contrast look, and I think I succeeded, but I'm not clear on when low contrast becomes "too low" as some people here have commented.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the gorge height on the vest. While on a jacket I would say such a gorge height is too high, for some reason I am less inclined to say that for this vest. My next vest will have a lower gorge though - more just to experiment than me having an issue with the current gorge height.
EDIT: I realized after typing this that for ties of thicker fabric, simply tying the knot on the thinner part of the tie will achieve a tiny knot. In the past I wouldn't have done this due to the long tie it produces, but now having a vest that will never be unbuttoned I can simply tuck the long tie in and it will never be visible.
I agree with the sentiment that the color of the tie could be improved upon by being more complimentary.
AlphaOmega, thank you for the candid observations. What I am striving to achieve is a combination of relatively casual fabrics and relatively formal silhouettes (although I have a number of knit ties which I guess doesn't align with this thought).
I agree that the tie fabric is thicker than would be ideal for a tab collar. I went with a knit tie because it is the most casual type of tie. I will try a wool tie that isn't a knit tie next time and see how it looks.
An (irrational) part of me really wants to have French cuffs. Partly because of the formality, and partly because of the option they provide to be just a little more interesting than a button cuff. I read numerous posts on AskAndy / Styleforum about this and decided at that time that wearing a vest sans jacket was a compromise of sorts. In between the camp that thinks French cuffs looks just fine with nothing tailored on top and the camp that thinks it only looks appropriate with a jacket. Personally, I like the way the French Cuffs look on this outfit. They are barely noticeable (due in part to the silk knots) but give a slightly more formal silhouette.
The observation of the hips being accentuated... I had not noticed that. Good eye. I can see how with the vest suppressing any billowing of the shirt, the flaring of the trousers begins to stand out more. I've pretty much committed myself to an aesthetic of wearing a trouser/vest combo sans jacket so I'm not sure if there is anything I can do about this since I don't plan on wearing a jacket most times. I'm all ears to any suggestions though.
My goal was to achieve a low contrast look, and I think I succeeded, but I'm not clear on when low contrast becomes "too low" as some people here have commented.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the gorge height on the vest. While on a jacket I would say such a gorge height is too high, for some reason I am less inclined to say that for this vest. My next vest will have a lower gorge though - more just to experiment than me having an issue with the current gorge height.
EDIT: I realized after typing this that for ties of thicker fabric, simply tying the knot on the thinner part of the tie will achieve a tiny knot. In the past I wouldn't have done this due to the long tie it produces, but now having a vest that will never be unbuttoned I can simply tuck the long tie in and it will never be visible.
G
Guest
·Dress is language and our discourse would be very dull if we only said the same things repeatedly. As you appear in the photo, I find your dress and grooming present a unified and appealing aesthetic. Harmonious contrast can be provided via various combinations of color, tone or pattern. As you've stated, you elected to employ mainly tone for a deliberately more subtle, muted effect. And I think you've succeeded very well. On another occasion you might wish to say something different and use elements with greater contrast to express a more ebullient mood. Neither choice is necessarily superior to the other.
Your vest is idiosyncratic but aesthetically successful. Not only is gorge height very high, but it's cut much lower than what is traditional, but none the less, flatters your figure. I like both the cut and fit of your trousers, though I prefer cuffs. Current fashion has warped perspective. As to whether a jacket is necessary, I would prefer one for going out in public, but would find you dress as is entirely acceptable indoors and for more casual encounters.
I also have no problems with French cuffs with the other items, or the tab collar. It's a handsome shirt. Yes, silk knots are great, other more casual considerations would be more casual enamel links, or sporting Essex Crystal. If you wish to employ color, you might consider wool challis for ties, they tie a very small knot.
Your vest is idiosyncratic but aesthetically successful. Not only is gorge height very high, but it's cut much lower than what is traditional, but none the less, flatters your figure. I like both the cut and fit of your trousers, though I prefer cuffs. Current fashion has warped perspective. As to whether a jacket is necessary, I would prefer one for going out in public, but would find you dress as is entirely acceptable indoors and for more casual encounters.
I also have no problems with French cuffs with the other items, or the tab collar. It's a handsome shirt. Yes, silk knots are great, other more casual considerations would be more casual enamel links, or sporting Essex Crystal. If you wish to employ color, you might consider wool challis for ties, they tie a very small knot.
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Please provide rationale for vest no jacket, Not being snarky, just would like to know.
Part of my wardrobe includes cords, moleskins, tweed trousers, Tattersalls and tweed odd jackets waistcoats etc..
I have never had a desire to go jacket less whether wearing waistcoat or not. Includes 3 piece suit .
I'm quite fond of my more casual ( not all that casual ) country type wardrobe as I am of my formal wardrobe.
But if I'm wearing a waistcoat with any of the above type garments with tie, I'll wear an appropriate jacket.
I'll remove to perform a chore such as cooking , just not for some affect.
I exclude any waistcoat/vest designed for cold whether work wear or sporting , think Filson.
Just a curious mind, again no snark.
Part of my wardrobe includes cords, moleskins, tweed trousers, Tattersalls and tweed odd jackets waistcoats etc..
I have never had a desire to go jacket less whether wearing waistcoat or not. Includes 3 piece suit .
I'm quite fond of my more casual ( not all that casual ) country type wardrobe as I am of my formal wardrobe.
But if I'm wearing a waistcoat with any of the above type garments with tie, I'll wear an appropriate jacket.
I'll remove to perform a chore such as cooking , just not for some affect.
I exclude any waistcoat/vest designed for cold whether work wear or sporting , think Filson.
Just a curious mind, again no snark.
I've never been asked for "the why" before so I took some time to sort through my thoughts, the history around it. Below is what I was able to discern.
High level summary:
The desire to wear waistcoats sans jacket came from the desire to wear something to cover braces that I also feel I can knock around in. Also, to not feel committed to wearing a sport coat every time I put on a dress shirt. See detailed thought process for more.
Detailed thought process (if you are so inclined):
The high level summary may make it sound like I worked backwards from wearing a jacket but it developed from the ground up.
1st commitment: braces for high rise trousers
I've come to especially appreciate braces in that they hold trousers at the same height all day (in the pre-braces era it was frustrating to have my aesthetic ruined unbeknownst to me by gravity). With my trousers all having a 12" rise they also don't drape nearly as well without braces. Thus I committed myself to wearing braces almost anytime I dress up.
2nd commitment: something to cover the braces
Wearing braces all the time means I probably shouldn't just wear trousers and a shirt. So what to wear over the shirt? A sweater, waistcoat, or jacket came to mind. Thus I committed myself to wearing something over my dress shirts almost anytime I dress up.
3rd commitment: something I can knock around in
I don't usually feel like I can knock around in a sport coat while that is not the case with a waistcoat. For example, if I am going to recline on my sofa to read I have no hesitations in wearing a waistcoat, but I would likely take off a jacket before doing so. In addition, I didn't want to commit myself to putting on a sport coat every time I put on a dress shirt. Thus I committed myself to wearing a waistcoat instead. I do have a few sweaters as well but since sweaters are only available in a handful of colors/fabrics, they seemed too limiting as a "go to".
With all that said, I may put on a jacket from time to time but it will be the exception. If I put one on over a waistcoat that was designed to be worn without one, I accept it will look slightly off recognizing that this scenario will be in the vast minority.
References:
Permanent style has a few articles that cover waistcoats, including wearing them on their own. The links to the ones I've read the most are below. To be clear, not all the arguments Simon makes are my own arguments but he provides perspective.
The logical waistcoat theory (part one) - Permanent Style
The Logical Waistcoat Theory (part two) - Permanent Style
Harris Tweed waistcoat, Richard James - Permanent Style
Generally, the silk backs of waistcoats today precludes them from being worn sans jacket but with a tailor, that is easy enough to overcome. As a plus, MTM/bespoke waistcoats are relatively inexpensive.
I hope this sharing has proved insightful and I welcome any thoughts on it.
Sincerely,
maws
High level summary:
The desire to wear waistcoats sans jacket came from the desire to wear something to cover braces that I also feel I can knock around in. Also, to not feel committed to wearing a sport coat every time I put on a dress shirt. See detailed thought process for more.
Detailed thought process (if you are so inclined):
The high level summary may make it sound like I worked backwards from wearing a jacket but it developed from the ground up.
1st commitment: braces for high rise trousers
I've come to especially appreciate braces in that they hold trousers at the same height all day (in the pre-braces era it was frustrating to have my aesthetic ruined unbeknownst to me by gravity). With my trousers all having a 12" rise they also don't drape nearly as well without braces. Thus I committed myself to wearing braces almost anytime I dress up.
2nd commitment: something to cover the braces
Wearing braces all the time means I probably shouldn't just wear trousers and a shirt. So what to wear over the shirt? A sweater, waistcoat, or jacket came to mind. Thus I committed myself to wearing something over my dress shirts almost anytime I dress up.
3rd commitment: something I can knock around in
I don't usually feel like I can knock around in a sport coat while that is not the case with a waistcoat. For example, if I am going to recline on my sofa to read I have no hesitations in wearing a waistcoat, but I would likely take off a jacket before doing so. In addition, I didn't want to commit myself to putting on a sport coat every time I put on a dress shirt. Thus I committed myself to wearing a waistcoat instead. I do have a few sweaters as well but since sweaters are only available in a handful of colors/fabrics, they seemed too limiting as a "go to".
With all that said, I may put on a jacket from time to time but it will be the exception. If I put one on over a waistcoat that was designed to be worn without one, I accept it will look slightly off recognizing that this scenario will be in the vast minority.
References:
Permanent style has a few articles that cover waistcoats, including wearing them on their own. The links to the ones I've read the most are below. To be clear, not all the arguments Simon makes are my own arguments but he provides perspective.
The logical waistcoat theory (part one) - Permanent Style
The Logical Waistcoat Theory (part two) - Permanent Style
Harris Tweed waistcoat, Richard James - Permanent Style
Generally, the silk backs of waistcoats today precludes them from being worn sans jacket but with a tailor, that is easy enough to overcome. As a plus, MTM/bespoke waistcoats are relatively inexpensive.
I hope this sharing has proved insightful and I welcome any thoughts on it.
Sincerely,
maws
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3,715 Posts
Maws, thank you for the explanation.
Generally, an outfit that includes a tie, a dress shirt, a vest, and trousers—yet no jacket—seems out of whack to me. Unbalanced and unfinished—as if the person wearing that rig is still saving up for the jacket.
However......
You mentioned that you’d prefer not to wear a jacket when you are “knocking around” at home. Well. That’s a different matter. Dress up or down as you please there. I don’t blame you for going without a jacket if you’re plopped on your sofa.
Even at the office, there’d be nothing “off” about your outfit if you took a jacket into your place of employment and then just kept it draped over your chair the entire day.
I think it would be sub-optimal if you wore everything except a jacket to miscellaneous appointments outside the office. People would think you couldn’t afford a jacket. So outside your home, keep a jacket handy—in your car, or hanging on some coat hook; you don’t have to wear it all the time. But it will be there should you need it.
(By the way, if you like French cuffs, wear French cuffs. You don’t need to reserve them just for suit-wearing occasions.)
Generally, an outfit that includes a tie, a dress shirt, a vest, and trousers—yet no jacket—seems out of whack to me. Unbalanced and unfinished—as if the person wearing that rig is still saving up for the jacket.
However......
You mentioned that you’d prefer not to wear a jacket when you are “knocking around” at home. Well. That’s a different matter. Dress up or down as you please there. I don’t blame you for going without a jacket if you’re plopped on your sofa.
Even at the office, there’d be nothing “off” about your outfit if you took a jacket into your place of employment and then just kept it draped over your chair the entire day.
I think it would be sub-optimal if you wore everything except a jacket to miscellaneous appointments outside the office. People would think you couldn’t afford a jacket. So outside your home, keep a jacket handy—in your car, or hanging on some coat hook; you don’t have to wear it all the time. But it will be there should you need it.
(By the way, if you like French cuffs, wear French cuffs. You don’t need to reserve them just for suit-wearing occasions.)
Charles,
I appreciate the perspective and I generally agree with your sentiments.
When I am going to be in an environment where I thought someone else could be dressed up in a meaningful way, I will absolutely don one (although this is a rare thing these days).
Sincerely,
maws
I appreciate the perspective and I generally agree with your sentiments.
When I am going to be in an environment where I thought someone else could be dressed up in a meaningful way, I will absolutely don one (although this is a rare thing these days).
Sincerely,
maws
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178 Posts
What you need for knocking around at home is a dressing gown.
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37,122 Posts
Expand your definition of a dressing gown to include bathrobes and I heartily agree with you. LOL.
haha. Now we are talking! I recently acquired a dressing gown from Budd in 18oz Fox Flannel. I love it. I wear it over Cashmerello PJs. It feels so grand to get the mail in it. Who knew getting the mail could be so much fun?
Just to provide an update for the fun of it. Below is a photo of the same outfit except with a different tie. I tied the tie differently to have a smaller knot and with the tie being a blue-brown knit, I think it complements the outfit better. I did order a tie that has some gold in it too.
![Trousers Dress shirt Sleeve Gesture Collar]()
Sincerely,
maws
Just to provide an update for the fun of it. Below is a photo of the same outfit except with a different tie. I tied the tie differently to have a smaller knot and with the tie being a blue-brown knit, I think it complements the outfit better. I did order a tie that has some gold in it too.
Sincerely,
maws
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