[Winhes2]

1. How do tie manufacturers sell to independent shops or to chains?

2. What percentage of chains own their tie manufacturing?

3. When an independent shop or local shop of a chain sells out of a tie, are they able to order additional identical ones? Are all orders occur several months before the season and then they have only what they ordered then or are there wholesalers throughout the land maintaining inventory?

4. Is there a difference: (a) up close; or (b) in the invisible to the eye construction between this $89 Brooks Brothers solid burgundy tie and these $19 Tie Bar solid Burgundy tie or slightly darker Wine tie? They are all silk and the fabric looks to have the same weave, or at least close enough that nobody would notice the difference without turning the tie around to read the label.

5. Because of that visible texture in those ties, I'm guessing they are middle or lower end ties. Although solid, to my eye, the visible ribs just takes them out of the more elegant formal category. Would the above answers be different for more formal, higher end ties, such as a nice dark conservatively patterned Chipp Neckwear miniature blue diamond ancient madder or O'Connells Atkinson's navy neat ancient madder which I assume are higher end ties because of the nicer fabric.

 

[Flanderian]

Those are a whole lot of very detailed questions, but fortunately, I have the answer . . . . it depends.

1. How do tie manufacturers sell to independent shops or to chains?

Your question presupposes that there is only one process, and while I only have sketchy information concerning some of the various processes, I do know, it's not that simple. In many cases there is at least a wholesaler, or a jobber between the manufacturer, or manufacturers, and in some instances likely more. In other cases, I'm sure a manufacturer does sell directly to a retailer. There will be different levels of pricing at the wholesale dependent upon volume and pre-existing relationship between various parties. The average gross margin on ties used to be 75% - 80% from the wholesale price that the retailer pays. Obviously, the more people there are in the middle, the thinner the slices will be.

2. What percentage of chains own their tie manufacturing?

Very few, if any, any longer. Brooks used to make some of there neckwear. I may have read they no longer do. Current MBA orthodoxy seems to be, don't make hardly anything, your capital will get a better return with you handling another part of the business. I.e., you'll make more money "branding" and selling merchandise than you'll ever make by manufacturing it.

Making ties isn't rocket surgery, nor does it require substantial capital. Anyone with good hands can be taught to make decent ties. A lot of ties are made in small shops by people who aren't making a lot of money. The same tie may be made by several different makers, and they'll all look identical to the purchaser.

The mystique perpetrated on-line about 7-fold ties being made by artisans who needed 20 years to become a "master" tie maker, is largely eye-wash. The bulk of the cost isn't labor, it's the actual cloth from which the tie is made, which can be substantial, or negligible.

3. When an independent shop or local shop of a chain sells out of a tie, are they able to order additional identical ones? Are all orders occur several months before the season and then they have only what they ordered then or are there wholesalers throughout the land maintaining inventory?

It depends. Paul Stuart's ties for example tend to use cloth that's very limited, to the extent that you won't find it anywhere else, so when it's gone, it's likely gone for good. Though you may see something similar a couple seasons later. Other things are more generic, and therefore could be theoretically reordered. Most retailers will be working at least a season ahead on their orders.

All orders, probably most, but all is an absolute. I'm sure NYC still has a few tie makers, if there's cloth, and they have the capacity, and you're willing to pay what they'll demand for a rush order, you could probably get a little of something more quickly.

4. Is there a difference: (a) up close; or (b) in the invisible to the eye construction between this $89 Brooks Brothers solid burgundy tie and these $19 Tie Bar solid Burgundy tie or slightly darker Wine tie? They are all silk and the fabric looks to have the same weave, or at least close enough that nobody would notice the difference without turning the tie around to read the label.

There usually is. Ties that are being sold for $100 probably only cost $15 or $25 to make. Now there are retailers who will try to sell you the same tie that retails for $25 somewhere, for $100, but more typically the very cheap ties are less certain in the making, and use cheaper materials. And if you wear the two, you'll see and know the difference. A tie needs to look rich, knot well, and hang straight. A more costly tie (Within reason.) will on average be potentially superior in each of those.

5. Because of that visible texture in those ties, I'm guessing they are middle or lower end ties. Although solid, to my eye, the visible ribs just takes them out of the more elegant formal category. Would the above answers be different for more formal, higher end ties, such as a nice dark conservatively patterned Chipp Neckwear miniature blue diamond ancient madder or O'Connells Atkinson's navy neat ancient madder which I assume are higher end ties because of the nicer fabric.

Sorry, but I don't see any of the ties you're comparing. A rep tie actually refers to the rib, or twill which is the basic weave for most ties. In some instances, this rib can be quite pronounced, as in an Ottoman Silk, but is a very elegant tie.

 

[Winhes2]

Thank you Flanderian for another very informative and helpful post.

I looked up ottoman silk ties. One sold by tmlewin looks the same as those by tiebar and Brooks brothers, except the reps or grooves slant in the opposite direction. Another by Turnbull and asser looks more like a narrower version of some textured polyester ties from the 70's.

Maybe there is a very noticeable difference when viewed or felt up close.

I'd been under the impression that a silk tie without visible texture, such as the ancient madders or other smooth silks were more formal and conservative and higher end and more desireable than ties with visible textures. Perhaps I was mistaken.

 

[Flanderian]

Thank you Flanderian for another very informative and helpful post.

I looked up ottoman silk ties. One sold by tmlewin looks the same as those by tiebar and Brooks brothers, except the reps or grooves slant in the opposite direction. Another by Turnbull and asser looks more like a narrower version of some textured polyester ties from the 70's.

Maybe there is a very noticeable difference when viewed or felt up close.

You really can't determine enough about the appearance of a tie from a monitor image, or even a catalog, if you're not familiar with the quality of the merchandise a retailer sells from personal inspection. I wouldn't be surprised if the Lewin and Tiebar ties are identical or at least very similar. Brooks generally still sells a better grade of goods. Comparing a quality tie with a lesser one in-person you'd might likely note the cheaper tie is either undesirably shinier or duller, stiff and less luxurious feeling and the color doesn't look as rich being either too bright or unnatural by comparison.

I'd been under the impression that a silk tie without visible texture, such as the ancient madders or other smooth silks were more formal and conservative and higher end and more desireable than ties with visible textures. Perhaps I was mistaken.

It's not that simple. Both Ottoman twill ribbed ties, and smooth silk satin weave ties (Very flat with a luster.) are among two of the dressier options, particularly in solids. I've got two of the ribbed versions, one each in dark silver grey, and one in mauve, bought from Burberry when they still sold traditional goods. The ribs run horizontally and are about 1/16".

And I have silk satin ties, mainly from Polo. Both are among my most formal options. The dark silver grey is for my formal evening events, and I was married in a robin's egg blue silk satin.

Ancient madder has nothing to do with the weave of the tie. It refers to the coloring (Originally dye from the madder plant.) and sometimes the patterns in which it was commonly printed. The silk on which it's printed is almost always a rep twill, but one much smaller than the broad ribs such of an Ottoman twill, so that it may appear smooth unless examined closely. For comparison, a silk satin tie can appear entirely devoid of any ribbing.

 

[EdwardWilson]

Brooks Brothers owns their tie factory in New York and manufacturers their ties from silk woven in England or Italy.

I remember when Donald Trump went on Letterman and said nobody made ties in America anymore. I was horrified. Letterman suggested they open a factory in Queens. I guess nobody told them there is already a huge factory that produces more than 1 million ties a year.

https://www.brooksbrothers.com/Made-in-New-York-Landing-Page/madeinnewyork,default,pg.html

 

[Winhes2]

OK. Thank you.

 

[Matt S]

4. Is there a difference: (a) up close; or (b) in the invisible to the eye construction between this $89 Brooks Brothers solid burgundy tie and these $19 Tie Bar solid Burgundy tie or slightly darker Wine tie? They are all silk and the fabric looks to have the same weave, or at least close enough that nobody would notice the difference without turning the tie around to read the label.

5. Because of that visible texture in those ties, I'm guessing they are middle or lower end ties. Although solid, to my eye, the visible ribs just takes them out of the more elegant formal category. Would the above answers be different for more formal, higher end ties, such as a nice dark conservatively patterned Chipp Neckwear miniature blue diamond ancient madder or O'Connells Atkinson's navy neat ancient madder which I assume are higher end ties because of the nicer fabric.

This is one thing I am able to comment on and give my take, which is similar to what @Flanderian wrote. There are many different weaves for silk ties. Repp and satin are two common weaves for ties. Repp has a matte surface with a rib while satin has a sheen and is very smooth. Satin is more formal, but not more expensive or better. The quality of the more expensive tie is apparent when wearing and knotting the ties.

It's not that simple. Both Ottoman twill ribbed ties, and smooth silk satin weave ties (Very flat with a luster.) are among two of the dressier options, particularly in solids. I've got two of the ribbed versions, one each in dark silver grey, and one in mauve, bought from Burberry when they still sold traditional goods. The ribs run horizontally and are about 1/16".

Since we're talking weaves, I should correct you. Repp and ottoman are popular ribbed weaves for tie silks, but they are not twills. They are plain weaves. Because ties are cut on the bias (diagonally), a ribbed plain weave that is woven with the ribs crosswise will be diagonal on a tie. When you see a tie with the ribs running horizontally, it means the silk is woven in an 45° twill weave.

 

[Flanderian]

Brooks Brothers owns their tie factory in New York and manufacturers their ties from silk woven in England or Italy.

I remember when Donald Trump went on Letterman and said nobody made ties in America anymore. I was horrified. Letterman suggested they open a factory in Queens. I guess nobody told them there is already a huge factory that produces more than 1 million ties a year.

https://www.brooksbrothers.com/Made-in-New-York-Landing-Page/madeinnewyork,default,pg.html

Thanks for the info! I knew they had had a tie making operation, but I thought I may have read they had sold it. Guess not. Haven't bought a Brooks tie in a very long time, but those I have are all very nice.

 

[Flanderian]

This is one thing I am able to comment on and give my take, which is similar to what @Flanderian wrote. There are many different weaves for silk ties. Repp and satin are two common weaves for ties. Repp has a matte surface with a rib while satin has a sheen and is very smooth. Satin is more formal, but not more expensive or better. The quality of the more expensive tie is apparent when wearing and knotting the ties.

Since we're talking weaves, I should correct you. Repp and ottoman are popular ribbed weaves for tie silks, but they are not twills. They are plain weaves. Because ties are cut on the bias (diagonally), a ribbed plain weave that is woven with the ribs crosswise will be diagonal on a tie. When you see a tie with the ribs running horizontally, it means the silk is woven in an 45° twill weave.

A little fuzzy on my geometry, thanks Matt for the pick up! I quickly become befuddled if I'm not looking at the actual example. I should investigate the issue in more depth. I was thinking of the hills and valleys typical of a twill as being analogous to what is found on the Ottoman silk, and in much smaller scale, a repp tie which is so small that it must be examined very closely to be noticed.

The two Ottoman silk weaves I very deep variations between the ridges and valley. The dark silver grey has served admirably as a tie I have recently, but unfortunately, had to wear to funerals, as I have no black tie to serve the purpose. It's sufficiently formal and severe in appearance to be a fair stand-in absent the more appropriate article.

 

[Flanderian]

OK. Thank you.

Quite welcome!

 

[EdwardWilson]

Thanks for the info! I knew they had had a tie making operation, but I thought I may have read they had sold it. Guess not. Haven't bought a Brooks tie in a very long time, but those I have are all very nice.

I have more Brooks Brothers ties than I care to admit, probably 100. I love the classic, stodgy pattern, but I do find them thin and flimsy. Canali and Zegna make a thicker tie that I prefer.

 

[Flanderian]

I have more Brooks Brothers ties than I care to admit, probably 100. I love the classic, stodgy pattern, but I do find them thin and flimsy. Canali and Zegna make a thicker tie that I prefer.

To each, their own. Within reason, I like a thinner (Not narrower) tie, as it ties a smaller, neater knot, which I prefer. This is a characteristic of true wool challis when it's lined with an appropriate thinner lining. They tie beautiful knots. I've got 4 or 5 from the late F. R. Tripler made by John Comfort that are wonderful. If wearing a tab collar, particularly Brooks' which has almost no tie space, this type of knot is essential.

 

[Gurdon]

Thanks everyone, for a wonderfully interesting thread. I enjoy wearing ties, but I have many occasions to wear them.
Regards,
Gurdon

 

[SG_67]

Far from knowing how the clothing trade works, it seems to me in this day and age, if one is an independent tie manufacturer, then the ideal selling strategy is to do it online.

As for the second question, that’s a good one and I don’t know. I do remember years ago, next to the Hermès boutique in Chicago, there was an Hermès pop-up which showcased artisans and craftsman from the manufacturing facilities who were engaged in all of the various aspects of production of their product line. Center stage, of course, were the scarves, but also leather goods, watches and even the ties. So at least in the case of Hermès, they make their own ties.

 

[Winhes2]

Thank you all for these insights.

 

[Sam Hober]

4. Is there a difference: (a) up close; or (b) in the invisible to the eye construction between this $89 Brooks Brothers solid burgundy tie and these $19 Tie Bar solid Burgundy tie or slightly darker Wine tie? They are all silk and the fabric looks to have the same weave, or at least close enough that nobody would notice the difference without turning the tie around to read the label.

5. Because of that visible texture in those ties, I'm guessing they are middle or lower end ties. Although solid, to my eye, the visible ribs just takes them out of the more elegant formal category. Would the above answers be different for more formal, higher end ties, such as a nice dark conservatively patterned Chipp Neckwear miniature blue diamond ancient madder or O'Connells Atkinson's navy neat ancient madder which I assume are higher end ties because of the nicer fabric.

Winhes2,

You have received lots of good answers in this thread.

Some thoughts:

The difference in low to middle ties (Tie Bar to O'Connells etc) starts with the fabric and construction quality, a better tie will have better fit and finish and quality control and better fabric.

Some people will never see the difference or maybe see it but not care so then stay with the low end tie and all is well.

As for for formality or elegance beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

When you get into a high end custom made tie you will get exactly what you want in ntrems of length, width, shape, construction etc.

I can assure you that our profit margin is very small no where near what was quoted earlier in this thread.

 

[Winhes2]

Thank you Mr. Hober.