[smmrfld]

The issue of dress codes and appropriate attire aside, that move by your host would have turned me off in a big way. Did he think that show of power would impress his two guests, or was he that bothered by the offending parties' dress that he couldn't help but ask the attendant to intervene, despite the impression the move might create with his guests?

Agree completely. Quite a d-bag move by the host.

 

[Charles Dana]

^ Yeah, if I really, really cared that another patron in a country club dining room was flouting the dress code (and it's not necessarily bad to really, really care about such a thing in that setting), maybe-maybe-I'd have a small chat with the restaurant manager after my meal: I'd ask him/her how come the dress code wasn't being enforced. [Correction: If I were a longstanding member of the club, I'd probably have the chat.] But that's all-a chat. I wouldn't interrupt my meal so that I could arrange for the under-dressed diner to be ejected from the room. That would be going a little too far.

Now if that person were to crash his jalopy into my table, thereby knocking my Shrimp Louis into the lap of my new linen trousers from Ben Silver....

 

[Hebrew Barrister]

There *was* a time when the typical man could have clothes tailored, buy good shoes, and so on, and so naturally folks were better dressed *on average* than now; those days are long gone. Frankly, it's no longer actually possible to dress well on a budget

I completely disagree with that. It's quite easy, provided you aren't a snob about brands, fused sport coats / suits, or welted shoes, and accept that FIT matters more than anything else in terms of how you look.

Let's assemble a basic wardrobe:

-2 suits, maybe a navy and a charcoal. With luck and watching sales, you could get this done for $200, with less luck $250, much less luck $300, by shopping clearance at Jos A Bank (provided you don't have a difficult to fit body type). Fit matters most. They absolutely have normal colors, 100% wool, like solid navy and solid charcoal, in a variety of cuts, pleated or non-pleated, normal sizes, pop up in clearance regularly. Occasionally, even a signature gold (half-canvassed) pops up in clearance.

-3 sport coats. With luck and watching sales, $225-$300, JAB. Same comments as above.

-10 dress shirts. Watch sales, you can do this for $250 total, from either lands end or JAB.

-10 ties. $100-$200. $10-$20/ea on amazon, 100% silk. amazon.

-3 belts. $150. Wait for AE to have a sale and you can do this from them.

-1 pair black oxfords, 1 pair brown bluchers, 1 pair brown chukkas, 1 pair brown loafers. You could do this for under $400 if you bargain hunt for something like Cole Haan. Otherwise, if you just have to have non-glued shoes, $800-$1000 on shoe bank, $700-$800 ordering from beckett simonon. End of last year, Paul Evans did 2 pairs for $400, for sleek, patinad (or not), blake stitch, full grain leather.

Let's add this up. Using my pessimistic numbers, that's $2200+taxes+whatever shipping costs may be if any. Let's say I counted on too many discounts, and that the number after taxes and shipping is $3k.

So? That's a basic business wardrobe, and if you concentrate on FIT the most, you'll still look good, and that really is not that expensive in the scheme of things.

Of course, if you think fully canvassed bespoke suits, bespoke shirts, and yohei fukada shoes are required to "dress well", then sure, it's not affordable for most.

Edit:

So, I decided to do some research on historical prices. Check this article out. https://www.dummies.com/education/h...emembering-what-a-buck-could-buy-in-the-1960/

It highlights how most things were actually MORE expensive then compared to wages. The real difference is houses, which these days is extremely dependent on area. Live in LA and the average family cannot buy a home; live in Houston as an example, the average family can easily buy a home.

Cars? People forget how many more options cars have now. Basoc, low option cars these days are actually cheap. You don't need a $60k suburban to haul your kids adojnd -- a $25k minivan will do it just fine.

Bringing it back to clothing, if average family income was $7k, and an average business suit was as low as even $25, think of that ratio. That's 0.36% of your income for one suit. Let's say now you make $50k, and you grab a suit for $150, thats a flat 0.30% of your income, and average family income in the US now is well above $50k.

Things aren't perfect these days, but they are far from the doom and gloom many preach.

 

[EclecticSr.]

^ Yeah, if I really, really cared that another patron in a country club dining room was flouting the dress code (and it's not necessarily bad to really, really care about such a thing in that setting), maybe-maybe-I'd have a small chat with the restaurant manager after my meal: I'd ask him/her how come the dress code wasn't being enforced. [Correction: If I were a longstanding member of the club, I'd probably have the chat.] But that's all-a chat. I wouldn't interrupt my meal so that I could arrange for the under-dressed diner to be ejected from the room. That would be going a little too far.

Now if that person were to crash his jalopy into my table, thereby knocking my Shrimp Louis into the lap of my new linen trousers from Ben Silver....

Thanks for providing your persuasive argument, much better analogy.

 

[JBierly]

Can recall a similar scenario some years ago before I retired. Invited to a club by a member for lunch along with a colleague . The club having a dress code would at times allow non members to dine. As we sat, two gentlemen walked in to dine very casually dressed, jacket less, tee shirts and casual trousers. Our host immediately called over the Maitre De and directed him to refuse seating the pair. It wasn't so long ago that at many fine restaurants had a dress code, alas such may not be the case any longer.
I know of only one within driving distance from home and I book early.
No snob am I, very far from it but I will not succumb to what some millennials wish to dictate to pass for decent dress.

I think this speaks to the larger question of what are exactly one's values regarding social decorum. I for one would find it distasteful if I am dining at a high end restaurant wearing very nice clothing and find myself seated next to someone in sandals, a swimsuit, a sleeveless undershirt, and a baseball cap. Or next to a the homeless man with filthy clothing. It's not that they aren't entitled to wear what they want. But I should have the right to dine in an establishment that has a code that requires a certain level of decorum. Now where exactly that line is drawn certainly is debatable and up to individual tastes. In this story, t-shirts led to moral indignation on the part of the host. For me, probably someone with obvious bed bugs on their clothing would require me to say something. But the greater point is most of us have some threshold.

I think the era of the jacket required restaurant is just about gone - an anachronistic vestige of the past. There are only a few restaurants where I find the need to get dressed up. And when people eventually stop going completely to those restaurants - in effect, when the dress code starts to hurt their business then there will be another nail in the coffin.

 

[JBierly]

Of course, if you think fully canvassed bespoke suits, bespoke shirts, and yohei fukada shoes are required to "dress well", then sure, it's not affordable for most.

I admit I am that person - oh well, it's a cheaper hobby than boats, planes, and wives.

 

[Hebrew Barrister]

As if to help me make my above points further, I just received two e-mails, one from JAB and one from Orient.

35% off watches at Orient. Here, you can get an entirely satisfactory mechanical dress watch (Bambino), from a reputable manufacturer, for $195 after the discount. https://www.orientwatchusa.com/shop/mens-watches/fac00005w0/

JAB. 100% wool, blue check sport coat available in all normal sizes, $69. https://www.josbank.com/signature-collection-tailored-fit-check-sportcoat-clearance-11YKC

Same, but a grey check, $69. https://www.josbank.com/signature-collection-traditional-fit-check-sportcoat-clearance-11HDC

Register over at Beckett & Simonon and you get 20% off first order. That would, today, get you full grain leather, blake stitch oxfords (cap toe or brogued) for $160, or chukkas for like $10 more.

Do I need to spend a few minutes finding suit prices and dress shirt prices as well?

 

[EclecticSr.]

I think the era of the jacket required restaurant is just about gone - an anachronistic vestige of the past. There are only a few restaurants where I find the need to get dressed up. And when people eventually stop going completely to those restaurants - in effect, when the dress code starts to hurt their business then there will be another nail in the coffin.

I don't disagree, I said earlier I know of only one restaurant within reasonable driving distance that still has a dress code and as far as I can tell it doesn't seem to be hurting their business. If and when they drop the code I will still patronize them, I like the food and atmosphere. Not the only restaurant I dine at. I don't come to the forum claiming any moral high ground, superior intellect and knowledge and other than the occasional joke, I try to avoid ridiculing, mocking and insulting others regardless the topic and fortunately hasn't happened to me much but I have witnessed it towards others on many occasions. Hypocrisy, disingenuous, all bets off then. Run down off that high ground, do a drive-by then scamper back up.

 

[FLMike]

Mmmmm....If I were teaching a course in Persuasive Argumentation, I'd say you might want to come up with a different analogy. I can see problems with this one right off the bat.

I agree. In addition to scratching my head over the analogy....really, the entire post....I'm left trying to figure out how my post, a politely albeit candidly stated opinion about the actions of the "host", invited such aggressive vitriol and name-calling. For someone closing in on 80 years old, that response reflects a stunning display of immaturity, in my opinion. Can anyone explain to me how and why my post was inappropriate in any way? I mean, Charles Dana even "liked" it, and he's got to be the most diplomatic, reasonable, and even-keeled gentleman on this forum. Right?

 

[Charles Dana]

Can anyone explain to me how and why my post was inappropriate in any way?

Nah, it was fine--just honest and understandable intellectual curiosity.

I mean, Charles Dana even "liked" it, and he's got to be the most diplomatic, reasonable, and even-keeled gentleman on this forum. Right?

Well thank you! But ohh--talk about setting high expectations! That's a pretty high bar I have to keep meeting. Please excuse me while I go downtown in search of a low bar.

 

[FLMike]

Please excuse me while I go downtown in search of a low bar.

If I wasn't so effete and sanctimonious, I would meet you there for a couple of cold ones.

 

[Dhaller]

I completely disagree with that. It's quite easy, provided you aren't a snob about brands, fused sport coats / suits, or welted shoes, and accept that FIT matters more than anything else in terms of how you look.

Let's assemble a basic wardrobe:

-2 suits, maybe a navy and a charcoal. With luck and watching sales, you could get this done for $200, with less luck $250, much less luck $300, by shopping clearance at Jos A Bank (provided you don't have a difficult to fit body type). Fit matters most. They absolutely have normal colors, 100% wool, like solid navy and solid charcoal, in a variety of cuts, pleated or non-pleated, normal sizes, pop up in clearance regularly. Occasionally, even a signature gold (half-canvassed) pops up in clearance.

-3 sport coats. With luck and watching sales, $225-$300, JAB. Same comments as above.

-10 dress shirts. Watch sales, you can do this for $250 total, from either lands end or JAB.

-10 ties. $100-$200. $10-$20/ea on amazon, 100% silk. amazon.

-3 belts. $150. Wait for AE to have a sale and you can do this from them.

-1 pair black oxfords, 1 pair brown bluchers, 1 pair brown chukkas, 1 pair brown loafers. You could do this for under $400 if you bargain hunt for something like Cole Haan. Otherwise, if you just have to have non-glued shoes, $800-$1000 on shoe bank, $700-$800 ordering from beckett simonon. End of last year, Paul Evans did 2 pairs for $400, for sleek, patinad (or not), blake stitch, full grain leather.

Let's add this up. Using my pessimistic numbers, that's $2200+taxes+whatever shipping costs may be if any. Let's say I counted on too many discounts, and that the number after taxes and shipping is $3k.

So? That's a basic business wardrobe, and if you concentrate on FIT the most, you'll still look good, and that really is not that expensive in the scheme of things.

Of course, if you think fully canvassed bespoke suits, bespoke shirts, and yohei fukada shoes are required to "dress well", then sure, it's not affordable for most.

Edit:

So, I decided to do some research on historical prices. Check this article out. https://www.dummies.com/education/h...emembering-what-a-buck-could-buy-in-the-1960/

It highlights how most things were actually MORE expensive then compared to wages. The real difference is houses, which these days is extremely dependent on area. Live in LA and the average family cannot buy a home; live in Houston as an example, the average family can easily buy a home.

Cars? People forget how many more options cars have now. Basoc, low option cars these days are actually cheap. You don't need a $60k suburban to haul your kids adojnd -- a $25k minivan will do it just fine.

Bringing it back to clothing, if average family income was $7k, and an average business suit was as low as even $25, think of that ratio. That's 0.36% of your income for one suit. Let's say now you make $50k, and you grab a suit for $150, thats a flat 0.30% of your income, and average family income in the US now is well above $50k.

Things aren't perfect these days, but they are far from the doom and gloom many preach.

"with luck and watching sales" - how much does this add to the actual cost of clothing?

Who has time to shop? I know I don't - I'm not going to linger around waiting for things to go on sale, or for an Ebay auction to end, and I'm pretty sure men of the past didn't "thrift" and go visiting a dozen stores to find a shirt for 80% off.

What's the average hourly wage in the USA, about $35/hour? If you spend an hour shopping to find that $25 shirt, it's actual cost is $60.

As for FIT being the only thing that matters in dressing well: that might be the case the first, say, three wearings of a suit. Once it starts coming apart and losing its shape, the reality of the JAB's "buy one, get eighty free" sales starts to show it's true (lack of) value.

Adding in a need to search and compromise to "dress well" doesn't invalidate my points; it proves them.

DH

 

[215339]

"with luck and watching sales" - how much does this add to the actual cost of clothing?

Who has time to shop? I know I don't - I'm not going to linger around waiting for things to go on sale, or for an Ebay auction to end, and I'm pretty sure men of the past didn't "thrift" and go visiting a dozen stores to find a shirt for 80% off.

What's the average hourly wage in the USA, about $35/hour? If you spend an hour shopping to find that $25 shirt, it's actual cost is $60.

As for FIT being the only thing that matters in dressing well: that might be the case the first, say, three wearings of a suit. Once it starts coming apart and losing its shape, the reality of the JAB's "buy one, get eighty free" sales starts to show it's true (lack of) value.

Adding in a need to search and compromise to "dress well" doesn't invalidate my points; it proves them.

DH

For the bolded, that doesn't work.

It assumes you're always getting paid by the hour. I doubt most people miss work to go shopping, they go on their off days.

 

[Dhaller]

For the bolded, that doesn't work.

It assumes you're always getting paid by the hour. I doubt most people miss work to go shopping, they go on their off days.

It's just a quick measure of opportunity cost.

For example, I assume my "free time" is worth $200/hour, based on various factors. So if I can spend an hour to save $100, I won't do that: I'm spending $200 to save $100, which makes no sense.

(There's a convention I attend most years which involves standing in line for an hour or so to pick up a badge, even when one has advance membership - call it Stuck in Antiquity - so I usually pay someone $50 to stand in line for me. $50 to save $200? yes please!)

So "off days" have plenty of value. What's the cost of not going to the botanical garden (or wherever) because you have to go find a sale on OCBDs? It's not easy to determine, but you at least know how much you sell your time for during business hours (annual wage/2000) - it's as good a place to start time valuation as any.

(Granted, there may be an odd species that actually *enjoys* shopping, and that's going depreciate the value of one's "free time"; fine, just work that into the model - one could still *prefer* shopping for one thing over another.)

DH

 

[JLibourel]

I suppose a lot of this could be distilled down to few simple statements.

1. Sartorial elegance is not particularly valued in our culture.

2. Sartorial elegance is regarded as stuffy, "un-hip," "uncool," etc. (Look at the sundry "tech" billionaires, who could easily afford the finest tailoring but run around dressed like little boys much of the time.)

3. Sartorial elegance is equated with discomfort. (A belief widely held by those who have never worn properly tailored garments.)

 

[Hebrew Barrister]

"with luck and watching sales" - how much does this add to the actual cost of clothing?

Who has time to shop? I know I don't - I'm not going to linger around waiting for things to go on sale, or for an Ebay auction to end, and I'm pretty sure men of the past didn't "thrift" and go visiting a dozen stores to find a shirt for 80% off.

What's the average hourly wage in the USA, about $35/hour? If you spend an hour shopping to find that $25 shirt, it's actual cost is $60.

As for FIT being the only thing that matters in dressing well: that might be the case the first, say, three wearings of a suit. Once it starts coming apart and losing its shape, the reality of the JAB's "buy one, get eighty free" sales starts to show it's true (lack of) value.

Adding in a need to search and compromise to "dress well" doesn't invalidate my points; it proves them.

DH

A couple things.

"Who has time to shop?" Where did I mention routinely going to actual stores? Shop online. Everything I stated would consume approximately 2-10 minutes a day. Check your e-mails once to see what sales have been offered, if there's a big sale on the type of item you need, go to the site and check prices.

Regarding JAB in particular, your assertion that their stuff would only last 3 wears is not even remotely close to my own experience. While I own nicer more expensive stuff, my two most worn sport coats happen to be from JAB. I've worn these regularly for years, and they look and fit like they did when new. Will they hold up as long as a canvassed bespoke sport coat? I would bet not a chance. However, with how they have aged, I don't see a reason why they won't last me another 5-10 years.

I suspect you also think that cemented shoes will last maybe a month before the heel falls off, another statement which can only be made based on lack of experience. (almost all of my shoes are AE by the way, although I have years worth of experience with Cole Haans before I got into nicer shoes, and they did hold up great despite being cemented).

Can you dress better than 99.9% of people on a limited budget? NOPE. If that's your contention, hey, I agree with you, and we are arguing semantics. There is absolutely an extra layer of polish provided by bespoke items.

However, can you dress respectably, professionally, and better than 95%+ of the shlubs out there on a budget? ABSOLUTELY. So, again, I just disagree completely with your assertions if you think the only way to look respectable on a daily basis is to spend big money.