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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
We all cant go to law school and be lawyers.
We cant all go to medical school and be doctors.
We cant all go to Tech collage and be engineers.
For the rest of the world, One graduated high school and joined the work force.For the vast majority of americans there were plenty of good paying jobs in manufacturing goods.For a variety of reasons (high corporate taxes,enviromental regulation,O.S.H.A. requirements,unions,mismatched currcencies,greed) manufactoring left america and so did the good paying jobs.Most of what was left was service sector Low paying jobs.This was fine and dandy for the five to ten years that there was a few consumers enjoying the low price of imported products.Then one day there were so many low paying jobs
in the service sector that the imports were no longer selling like hot cakes.All the credit cards were full and the people that were hauling,stocking and selling these imported products could no longer afford to buy them.the economy is in a world crisis because we are not manufacturing much nor is china because there is a bunch of unemployed americans not making purchases.Am I off base, or am I right on.
Thoughts please,
Cosmo
 

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Cosmo
While all of your reasons for losing our manufacturing base are true, some were, and are valid.
I love leather shoes. I also love clean rivers.
We can have both. we need both.
And while we all can't, or don't want to be lawyers; a good one knows what a day's work building,growing or fixing something is all about.
I have a M.A. in my degree field from one of the top two universities in that field.
Sadly there just haven't been a lot of want ads for field archaeologists with their own saddle, machete and rifle lately.
Nor, are their jobs of much anything, jobs I was never ashamed to take and gratefull to have.
At 11 P.M. I am driving to a local hotel to restack party chairs I helped set up at 5 A.M. I'm getting $60 and am glad. I drive home and people are trespassing my apt complex, dumpster diving for recyclables that just took a price drop like everything else.I have a midden on my porch ready to go soon.
It's grim, but I ate a cheap meal of rice and beans tonight with a bottle of inexpensive wine I forgot was under my backpack in the closet.It aged better than I am.
They took the elderly black man to hospital today, he who played his clarinet on the freeway offramp for change and slept behind a store in a carboard box.
I used to give him a dollar a day until the dollars stopped.
And to be honest, I joined a bunch of other people in the 'tax on stupidity' and bought a few mega lotto tickets and didn't get one lousy number.
I look for people to blame; the ceo greedheads, illegal immigrants, Washington and Scramento. They aren't answering my phoine alls, hoping I'll sell off all my rifles soon first.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Kav, your response was excellent, everything you stated was right on the money. This is truly a world recession.
Merry Christmas, Cosmo:icon_smile_big:
 

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The economy is ever changing. High taxes, enviromental rules, high wages, insurance for every employee and the list goes on. Third world country has none of these. An old saying "The easy way is the hard way and the hard way is the easy way". So greedy companies move to a third world country and pay even lower wages. The only thing these super smart, so over paid, for got is that 98% of the people don't earn enough to buy their products. I call it "Kill the goose that lays the Golden Egg".
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
WA, well said Im reminded of when all my anger arose about all this.In the early 90s when all the manufacturers started closing up and moving out of america, I remember it was of particularly big news when levis strauss closed 5 or 6 of its denim mills all at once and moved operations to mexico. They announced it was "to cut cost"Their jeans were $20.00 a pair. In less than a year their jeans were $25.00 to $ 30.00 a pair.I havent bought another pair to this day.
Merry Christmas,Cosmo:icon_smile_big:
 

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Back in the late sixties I wore levis strauss 501s. They cost about $6.50-.80. About 1971 another jean company came in as fashion and the price zipped up to $18 (I wouldn't wear them). Two three years later Brittians came in and they ended up selling around $36-38 before they became unfashionalble. Supply is cheap and demand is $$$. If you can dupe people into believing they want something you can make a lot of money, like that ugly doll guys wanted to adopt (the generation of guys who were brought up to think dolls are for girls only). It is snowing outside.
 

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WA,

In my opinion you are wrong.

Companies went offshore because they could. It meant they could lower their costs and keep prices high. Filson is a recent example of this.

The right wing twaddle about osha, environmental concerns, and unions is silly. If the country were run for the benefit of the people who live here we would have regulations to not only protect the environment but also to protect domestic industries and American workers. Instead, America is run for the benefit of the extremely wealthy minority who own the means of production and do not care about the well-being of the nation.

I realize that you will not change your views on this subject, but I did not want to let your knee-jerk conservative nonsense pass unremarked.

Regards,
Gurdon
 

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First off, I blame the education industry. They've promoted the myth that higher education and a white collar job is the only way to prosperity, and lately this is more often the path to lifelong debt. This elitism certainly led to my passing up a vocational education which would have me earning way more now.

The Greatest Depression we have now is correcting this to an extent. Money-moving has been proven not to be a source of wealth. Adam Smith knew all along that producing a good creates wealth, period. All of a sudden the importance of manufacturing is evident as Detroit flounders.

The minimum wage is so low that almost no adult citizens actually work for it. There is too much supply of (and more importantly too much demand for) illegal workers. Entire segments of the workforce are effectively shut off to native-born Americans. There are not jobs Americans won't do - they will do any job for a decent wage. Note that the pricey blue-collar service jobs are almost all unionized.

People that pretend that America can survive on a service economy are kidding themselves. We can't sustain ourselves by giving each other haircuts and being Wal-Mart greeters. Hopefully we'll remember that an economy hinged on credit is illusory too.
 

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WA,

In my opinion you are wrong....

Regards,
Gurdon
I don't think you understood what I said, or meant to say. If you don't pay people a good wage then who will buy the product? 2% of the population isn't going to be buying much. Therefore 98% of the population needs to make enough to buy the products. Moving factories off shore to pay lower wages leaves few able to buy. Therefore the easy way becomes the hard way for every one. Even the people at the top make considerablely less when they pay low wages to even the janitor. Low wages to the majority is killing the goose that lays the golden egg. If a company wants to make lots of money then they have to pay out lots of money to their workers to get the money moving, and the more times it goes around is where the money is at. So, this is the hard part paying out lots of money to there workers, which becomes the easy way because the money starts flowing. I think even the janitor should earn enough to buy a house.

Ford who started the Ford auto company said I will pay wages so my employee's can buy my cars. By doing so he became one of the wealthiest people on earth. Other companies followed. By doing this he enabled himself into a wealthy man. If he had paid a lower wage he would never had become so wealthy, if wealthy at all. No doubt some conservatives are greedy and some liberals. After all some liberals don't want to pay health insurance when the tax payer will pay it for him.
 

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It's easy to cry self entitlements and point to the shopping mall with Generation xers driving Beemers they got on their 16th birthday and not a clue waht happens at 18.
But, for a lot of people, self entitlement is a nasty slur for 'Dude your getting a shaft!'
All I ever heard was white males over 6' with a college education and a clean service record were the top of the dogpile.
Well let me tell you something. A whole lot of men, and women and different ethnicities we collectively call americans believed in that SOCIAL CONTRACT, played by the rules, started 401Ks and didn't go crazy on a credit bubble.
And what did we get? I was cashierd after 8 years at Home Despot, because Arthur blank got his 1000 stores and wanted a public aquarium with his name on it and a football team, so he could pay Vick millions of dollars to fight pit bulls with. And my HD 401K was cashed out just before it took a major dump. I'm 55. I have 10-12 years before thethin life preserver of S.S and medicare kick in. I have no health insurance, the V.A. does yoeman service but just announced my county center is being closed.
And as worried as I am personally, I see younger guys just home from Iraq, or fresh out of college, maybe with a family. And the best we can do is fill Craigslist with job scams.
And I do not begrudge peole who earned wealth. I wouldn't be here if I didn't love a particular expression of materialism called quality clothing. But I see gross largess by stir and serve instant celebrities, crooked businessmen and the whole putred scum on top of society Lenin would have recognised in his particular class hatred.
Entitled? Your damned right.
If the working class ( screw this middle class nicety thrown to us like a milk bone) were to rise up before totally destroyed, it would start a second revolution that would make Che Guevara and all the Turner Diary misanthropes in Idaho look like punks.
But sadly, most of us will sit in front of New Rome's Colliseum, watching The undertaker slam Kurt Engle to the matt in spasdic agony as we cheer true heroism onward.
 

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I am what I am and for me I didn't make a career choice so I wound up in vocational programs just to find myself and got a job coach who helped me get my foot in the door and now I'm pretty successful.My Father wanted me to be a computer programmer but I didn't want to go to college,just wanted to make money.
 

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Kav, of all people I would expect you to have some perspective on what being "poor" means today as opposed to what it meant 40 or 50 years ago. To quote the Heritage Foundation:
Overall, the typical American defined as poor by the government has a car, air conditioning, a refrig*erator, a stove, a clothes washer and dryer, and a microwave. He has two color televisions, cable or satellite TV reception, a VCR or DVD player, and a stereo. He is able to obtain medical care. His home is in good repair and is not overcrowded. By his own report, his family is not hungry, and he had suf*ficient funds in the past year to meet his family's essential needs. While this individual's life is not opulent, it is equally far from the popular images of dire poverty conveyed by the press, liberal activists, and politicians
And, to the OP: why can't an American make a middle-class wage doing something 40 hours a week that an uneducated third-world peasant can and will do for 60 hours a week for 1/100th as much pay? Well...
 

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WA,

In my opinion you are wrong.

Companies went offshore because they could. It meant they could lower their costs and keep prices high. Filson is a recent example of this.

The right wing twaddle about osha, environmental concerns, and unions is silly. If the country were run for the benefit of the people who live here we would have regulations to not only protect the environment but also to protect domestic industries and American workers. Instead, America is run for the benefit of the extremely wealthy minority who own the means of production and do not care about the well-being of the nation.

I realize that you will not change your views on this subject, but I did not want to let your knee-jerk conservative nonsense pass unremarked.

Regards,
Gurdon
Gurdon:

Is belief in the concept and benefit of comparative advantage knee-jerk conservative nonsense? Please elucidate for me, as I am always willing to learn, and would be most in your debt if you could rewrite a very fundamental economic principle.

Waiting in expectation,
Wayfarer
 

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It is cheaper to produce goods overseas. If we produce goods here for higher prices who will we sell them to? Other countries have the advantage of cheap labor. What do we have?

America needs to start producing again but what can we produce competitively?

Illegal immigrants are driving down wages. We can't raise our standard of living and wages while we are being flooded with illegal immigrants willing to work for nothing.
 

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The funny thing seems to be that illegal immigrants get much higher take-home pay than Americans doing similar jobs. Let's see--no income taxes, no payroll taxes, no state income taxes, no health insurance, no worker's compensation, no unions, no overtime, no frivolous lawsuits, etc., etc. And then you consider the fact that the illegals work longer hours, work harder, complain less, steal less, and do a better job than comparable American workers, and what do you get?
 

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The funny thing seems to be that illegal immigrants get much higher take-home pay than Americans doing similar jobs. Let's see--no income taxes, no payroll taxes, no state income taxes, no health insurance, no worker's compensation, no unions, no overtime, no frivolous lawsuits, etc., etc. And then you consider the fact that the illegals work longer hours, work harder, complain less, steal less, and do a better job than comparable American workers, and what do you get?
Mmm Uk has the same problems, and there are no easy answers, the damage is irrepairable, human rights and the politically correct brigade have seen to that. All we can do now is wait until we are so intermingled that minorities cease to exist and everyone is on the same level (nationally speaking) then we can start again on an even footing. Excuse me if I don't hold my breath. The world truely has gone mad.:rolleyes:
 

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,growing or fixing something is all about.
I have a M.A. in my degree field from one of the top two universities in that field.
Sadly there just haven't been a lot of want ads for field archaeologists
Are there different sub-specialties in this field? The reason I ask is because the Son of a friend of mine just completed his Master's Degree in archeology at New Mexico State and he was recruited out of college by multiple companies. He ended up going with an oil company. They gave him a signing bonus, 100k salary, and paid all of his moving expenses. Of course he did have to relocate to Houston. Maybe you should look into the oil companies.

Cruiser
 

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Companies went offshore because they could. It meant they could lower their costs and keep prices high. Filson is a recent example of this.

The right wing twaddle about osha, environmental concerns, and unions is silly. If the country were run for the benefit of the people who live here we would have regulations to not only protect the environment but also to protect domestic industries and American workers. Instead, America is run for the benefit of the extremely wealthy minority who own the means of production and do not care about the well-being of the nation.
Although your post is a jumble of errors and economic fallacies, consider at least your own self-contradiction --

Proposition A -- The country (by which I assume you mean the US government) is run for the benefit of the small minority that owns the "means of production" (which is a Marxist term for owning a business with physical assets, like a factory for example).

Proposition B -- This factory-owning minority feels compelled to move its factories out of the country.

If Proposition A were true, Proposition B would not be necessary.
 
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