Structure and canvassing.

4393 Views 46 Replies 6 Participants Last post by 215339, Apr 23, 2020

215339

Discussion Starter · Apr 15, 2020 (Edited)

I'm not sure how I feel about the cut, but it's impressive and well done.

Surprisingly no padding in the shoulder, only canvassing, despite how straight the shoulder-line is.

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215339

Discussion Starter · #2 · Apr 15, 2020 (Edited)

woops wrong forum.

@Oldsarge
@mikel

could you move this to the fashion forum?

edit: I decided to just make the thread there anyway, up to either of you if you want to delete this one.

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215339

Discussion Starter · #4 · Apr 15, 2020

Oldsarge said:
I think this is a Mikel problem.

Gotcha. Do the images show up for you btw?

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215339

Discussion Starter · #8 · Apr 16, 2020

Peak and Pine said:
...and I'm left curious. Some site posted a self-aggrandizing piece he wrote about himself, plus a :30 second video of him in a seemingly swell jacket, but all three buttons done up and he kept jumping around making boxer-type moves and jabs and the camera was set too low and the whole thing was off putting, did you see that one (gray flannel striped jacket)?

About your sleeves-off pic. That hollow space will be pulled down some when the weight of the sleeve is attached, or he may be planning on a pad to go in there. If neither of those then the shoulder seam should probably be tightened to lessen the hoop. This appears a from-scratch piece which I cannot do, nor want to, but on over half my jackets I have had to do what I just posited, especially when bringing a 90s shoulder into present day.

I haven't seen any of that, just an Anthony Bourdain video and his posts on styleforum, link?

He specifically showed that picture to me to show that his canvas extends into his shoulder and that he does not use a pad.

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215339

Discussion Starter · #10 · Apr 16, 2020

Peak and Pine said:
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10207379899236779

Hahahaha, yeah Frank seems to be quite the character from what I've seen so far.

He is indeed a boxer, looks like he is trying to show off the action back jacket.

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215339

Discussion Starter · #12 · Apr 16, 2020

Peak and Pine said:
By canvas, here you mean the canvas of the breast plate which in practically all jackets with a modicum of structure extends up and beneath the shoulder pad. But canvas is stiff, and often a thin pad of batting is placed above it, not to give loft as a true pad would, but to ease over shoulder bumps and cloth inseam allowances.

The former I think, I didn't even know that the structure of the breast plate would extend up that far, I always thought it extended only to the chest.

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215339

Discussion Starter · #14 · Apr 16, 2020

Peak and Pine said:
I have edited slightly the post you quote for clarity. Maybe reread. The breast plate almost always becomes part of the shoulder shape, else you'd have a nipple-level line where it stopped. Buy a thrift jacket and tear it apart and see this stuff. That was my tailoring school. My only one. I predate YouTube (which I consider cheating).

I'll take your word for it.

Something about buying a garment just to cut it up is offputting to me, but it makes sense if you want to learn about tailoring.

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215339

Discussion Starter · #18 · Apr 16, 2020

Peak and Pine said:
In your first post where you showed the sleeveless side-view, you said this:

Surprisingly no padding in the shoulder, only canvassing, despite how straight the shoulder-line is.

Where did you think the canvas in the shoulder came from? You're forgiven. It's an extension of the breast plate.

Basically, till today, I had no idea shoulders even HAD canvassing that extended over the slope of a shoulder as well.

Peak and Pine said:
How about paying two-bucks for a homely jacket that in no way could fit you, from a charity sale? You're not looking for Kiton, you're looking for Haggar. In the essentials they're all the same. Peek inside. You'll never leave.

You got me curious, especially considering I mainly buy quarter-lined jackets these days. I will add that to my to-do-list for when this quarantine ends.

I don't know if you remember, but I have an olive cotton jacket with 0 structure, and it looks dumpy on me now. It only has fusible in the shoulder, and 0 canvassing period. Makes sense.

The other jacket I just bought that is half-canvassed and marketed as Neapolitan, spalla-camicia, also has canvassing into the shoulder. I was under the impression that these types of jackets had 0 structure, canvas, or padding in the shoulder line.

Hopefully I didn't damage anything rummaging around there, are these areas usually delicate?

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215339

Discussion Starter · #19 · Apr 16, 2020

Peak and Pine said:
You and I have racked up 17 posts here, whoa, time flies when you're sheltering in place, but gotta go feed the cows now, euphemisticly speaking, as in going to bed and I don't understand the euphemism either, I only get the dirty ones.

Oh well, that's sometimes where the most fun discussions happen.

I'm going to repost this anyway as I feel impatient.

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215339

Discussion Starter · #30 · Apr 18, 2020

drpeter said:
Perhaps this is what @Peak and Pine meant? The canvas does look like it would extend over the shoulder in this diagram:

View attachment 42594

Yep, that's exactly it. Flat images never worked for me for a 3-D garment with multiple layers, but now it makes sense.

drpeter said:
Hmm, to each his own. Speaking of the OPs original herringbone tweed jacket, I think the bladed look of the back is rather extreme for my taste. It is almost as Neapolitan as spalla camicia (which of course, this jacket does not have, it seems to be more like extreme rope shoulders). I would also prefer lapels that are a bit more tame, and not quite as triangular, if that's the right word. But that is Neapolitan too, I think. Just personal preference, no criticism offered or implied.

Hmm I thought that this was more northern italian, or roman cut?

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215339

Discussion Starter · #32 · Apr 18, 2020

drpeter said:
You may be right. My knowledge of Italian tailoring is limited, so while I think it is definitely Italian, LOL, it may be more the northern (Roman, Milanese) style rather than Neapolitan. With due respect to all, I invite the Italian experts to step in and clarify.

Figuring out regional styles can be confusing in the modern era. Neapolitan is easy for me, I associate it with a 3 roll 2, spalla camicia sleevehead, and no padding in shoulder slope.

The one in the OP is tougher to figure out. It looks like a mix of italian and english.

I asked Mr. Shattuck how he'd describe his cut and he said he learned from English and Italian.

"My one customer says northern Italian with the fit of an English suit. But people will interpret differently. I know the fit is not Italian. The cut is not Italian. But possibly the lines might be Italian. "

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215339

Discussion Starter · #35 · Apr 18, 2020

drpeter said:
Since Mr Shattuck is the creator of the garment, we must go by his words! The lines did look Italian to me, hence my comments on that aspect of the jacket.

Ultimately, personal preferences are what drives the details of cut, fit and line. And that of course, is within the broad framework of a tailoring house's or tailor's general style. To take a different level of analysis, can a jacket or suit be created that borrows from two general approaches to tailoring? Can one, say, create a jacket that has elements of Huntsman as well as Anderson & Sheppard? I imagine one can. It seems to me that Mr Shattuck might be aiming for a fusion of the elements of both English and Italian styles. To my way of thinking, this approach might be called experimental tailoring.

If one goes farther along this path, one can see far more dramatic mergers and variations on style. To take one example that I'm familiar with from the old country, the standard Indian closed-collar (or tunic-style rounded collar) jacket that is part of a contemporary Indian suit can be seen as a merger of two very different styles: The cut of the long, tight-fitting and often calf-length, coat known as a sherwani, with a Western style suit jacket. This is the jacket that Nehru actually wore, and it has often been confused with the shorter version that is now part of the Indian suit, which is called a Nehru jacket in the West.. The sherwani has a rounded collar, a column of ten or fifteen close-spaced buttons and large quarters, with snug fits on the shoulder and chest and no pockets. This is tamed a bit and converted into a shorter jacket with four to five buttons, regular Western style quarters, and the customary pockets with flaps. I see this approach as a way of making the classical Indian style adapt to Western modes of dress. And I think such marriages of different styles can be quite elegant.

Experimental tailoring indeed, old regional markers to describe cuts can get confusing, but it does provide a baseline.

I'm confused by the 2nd paragraph though. Are you saying Western Suit+Sherwani=Nehru jacket?

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215339

Discussion Starter · #42 · Apr 19, 2020

@drpeter

Ahhh I see. I can't seem to find anything on galbandhi aside from a song reference, which is why I was confused. It sounds like the contention with the term "Nehru jacket", for the shortened vest-like jacket, is because Nehru wore Sherwanis as you mentioned, not galbandhis.

Not a fan of either. I think it tries to be formal and fails. The rounded Mandarin collar on both garments are inherently casual to me, but it's married to a long, structured, closely cut suit. It doesn't frame the face very well. They also look stifling and I'm not a fan of the resulting silhouette.

I vastly prefer kurta pyjamas. They're casual, and there's nothing wrong with that. I like ones with a spread shirt-collar because they frame the face, and the looser kurta silhouette works better with looser pyjamas as well, so it's more comfortable too.

Since India invented pyjamas, ironically I think kurta pyjamas would look more put together and less sloppy than actual western pyjamas worn outside the house.

I wish Kurtas came with collars like this though, it'd work best considering they're a casual garment, and I'm a sucker for a nice collar roll.

Maybe some action back details as well like you see in an overcoat

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215339

Discussion Starter · #44 · Apr 19, 2020

drpeter said:
I suppose we both have our preferences, influenced I'm sure, by our backgrounds. While I quite like both Indian and Western style suits, I do not care much for the sherwani style because I don't think it would look very good on me. As for the rounded collar style, I can understand how it can feel constricting, but for me, this has not been an issue unless the weather is very warm. I also think the situation and context matters: Living in the West, I wear Western suits when suits are called for, and dinner jackets on the few occasions when that level of formality is appropriate. I tend to wear the Indian suits at gatherings or ceremonies that have an Indian tone, or where a number of Indians are gathered. By the way, Indian suits are not formal in the sense that they are comparable to black or white tie. I think of them simply as a dressier set of clothes, much the same as I would think of a regular suit. To me formality means black or white tie. But they are formal relative to the casual kurta pyjamas, just as a suit is formal relative to slacks and a sportcoat, or casual jacket.

I do possess a mandarin collar style tuxedo which I picked up for fun, to try it out. I have not worn it on any occasion whatsoever, so it languishes in my closet. One of these days...

I do like your idea of modifications to Indian suits. One area where all sorts of things have been tried is show business in India. Lots of variations in cut and style, including Indian and western style suits with all kinds of decorative things added. I would not wear those things, but the folks in show business do, and that's part of their profession, it seems! It happens here as well. Check out the clothes during the Oscars!

In the final analysis, life and context make the selection of dress appropriate in a very different way. The rules that governed dressing in India had a variety of political aspects that made many people move away from Western styles of clothing and dressing -- Nehru is a prime example, Mahatma Gandhi an even more striking one. Gandhi dressed in suits when starting a legal practice in Durban and later Pretoria. But once he got back to India to start the work of winning freedom, his clothes changed dramatically. One or two pieces of homespun cloth wrapped in the manner of the ordinary villager or peasant, eventually replaced the suits and ties, and even the kurtas and dhotis. It was a political statement as well as an identification with the least amongst one's brethren. To me, coming from the old country and aware of its history, Gandhi's dress was the most apposite of clothes, and therefore the most elegant. Autre temps, autres moeurs, I daresay.

This principle has been stressed in a very different context by Bruce Boyer. He remarks that traditionally, American presidents wear a simple suit of conservative cut, and mostly white shirts and conservative plain or repp ties. There is little adornment, and while the suits themselves might be tailored, they are usually grey or navy and fairly plain. Extravagance is eschewed because, Boyer declares, it would be unseemly for a leader in a democracy to be wearing flashy clothes.

I won't get started about dressing in South India -- it's another world altogether!

I don't think a Sherwani would look good on me either, I agree there. I'll go further and say I don't know who they would look good on.

I find most people wear the Indian formal suits strictly at indian gatherings, so I also agree they're more formal than a kurta pyjama.

Though I've worn a slubby blue kurta pyjama at a wedding before and I feel like you can kind of get away with it.

The award shows are indeed very flamboyant, my mother watches them and the clothes they wear are fascinating.

I don't understand actual tailoring capabilities in India though. I sent my father pictures and measurements of my suit in Punjab, and the tailor there replicated the suit decently enough.

I sent my mother my actual safari jacket and no tailor bothered to even try to copy it, that was in Haryana.

One is a 3-dimensional garment, the other basically a shirt with extra pockets, so I was baffled.

Not familiar with the french proverb unfortunately. I don't understand it.

Clothing is language, I enjoyed reading your dissection of Nehru vs. Gandhi and to draw a parallel to American presidents.

Curious to see pictures of your mandarin collar tuxedo. Out of curiosity, I flipped up the lapels completely of a sports jacket I own, and it basically turned into a mandarin collar.

I know basically nothing about south india or south indian style, so I'd be curious to read it, and I think it deserves its own thread.

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215339

Discussion Starter · #47 · Apr 23, 2020

drpeter said:
A bit late, but here is why I thought the jacket you showed originally was more Neapolitan. Orazio Luciano is a tailor of some repute from Naples, and he recently made a corduroy jacket for Simon Crompton that is pictured in the latest edition of Crompton's blog Permanent Style. The high wide lapels are a hallmark of the Neapolitan style, and this was why I thought the original jacket you showed was Neapolitan. Take a look at the pictures (if you click on the first picture, it will enlarge, and then you can click the right arrow to see the rest of the photos, all enlarged):

https://www.permanentstyle.com/2020/04/orazio-luciano-made-to-measure-jacket-review.html

Cheers.

Ahh yes, now I understand!

Wide, sweeping lapels with a high gorge are definitely features I associate with Neapolitan tailoring.

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