[Roger]

Can we add Bentivegna?

Bentivegna construction--at least as Santoni illustrate it--would appear to produce a very sturdy and watertight shoe.

As before, once you have clicked onto the website, click "About Santoni," skip down to "Construction," and then to "Bentivegna." Again, the labeling is, I believe, a little mixed up. What's labeled "midsole" is really the insole, and what's labeled "innersole" is what we'd normally call the midsole. Here we have a construction method that has no seam running from the outsole into the insole--like Blake and Bologna--and thus no way for water to be wicked into the shoe. It differs from Norwegian/Norvegese construction by not having the upper turned out, but achieves almost the same water-tightness with the reverse welt. This construction method--at least as illustrated by Santoni--would seem to produce a very solid shoe--with the full midsole--and would never, I imagine, be wanted in double-sole form.

Again, though, I suspect that other construction details are used by other makers who refer to their shoes as of Bentivegna construction.

 

[Doctor Damage]

The word moccasin gets misused by the industry almost as much as the words "liberal" and "conservative" are misused by Americans. But when it comes down to the nut of the thing, moccasin construction is just a single piece of leather that wraps upwards over the foot and is attached to a plug that sits on the top of the foot. Everything else is fluff and details. The differences are not 1, 2, 3 but rather 1a, 1b, 1c.

 

[Roger]

The word moccasin gets misused by the industry almost as much as the words "liberal" and "conservative" are misused by Americans. But when it comes down to the nut of the thing, moccasin construction is just a single piece of leather that wraps upwards over the foot and is attached to a plug that sits on the top of the foot. Everything else is fluff and details. The differences are not 1, 2, 3 but rather 1a, 1b, 1c.

Would you consider a shoe lacking a stitched apron, and having a toe puff instead, a moccasin?

 

[bengal-stripe]

I'm not sure that there is one "classic moccasin construction" method, as the term "moccasin" is applied to a large number of different forms.

There is a thing like "Classic Moccasin Construction".

A classic moccasin of native Americans has one layer of leather, forming the sole and the sides. On top comes the apron and a structural seam connects lower with upper section. Compared to a conventional shoe it is like a 'Tarte Tartin' (upside-down cake). Normally the structural seam is the one that joins upper and sole and is at the bottom, in a moccasin it's on top.

Moccasins without an additional sole are only useful as slippers round the house. The simplest way to add an outer sole lay the sole/side piece on top of the additional sole and stitch both pieces together, while still flat. Then lay the last on top. Pull the sides up over the last, lay on the apron on and hand-stitch on the last. Characteristics of true moccasin construction is the leather going all the way underneath the foot.

All the classic Bass, Sebago, etc are true moccasin construction. Check it, they are usually unlined, the leather that forms the sides run all the way under the foot. But Alden's "Leisure Hand-sewn" is not a classic moccasin. It is a conventional welted shoe and the seam on top forms no functional purpose and is solely decorative.

 

[Roger]

There is a thing like "Classic Moccasin Construction".

A classic moccasin of native Americans has one layer of leather, forming the sole and the sides. On top comes the apron and a structural seam connects lower with upper section. Compared to a conventional shoe it is like a 'Tarte Tartin' (upside-down cake). Normally the structural seam is the one that joins upper and sole and is at the bottom, in a moccasin it's on top.

Moccasins without an additional sole are only useful as slippers round the house. The simplest way to add an outer sole lay the sole/side piece on top of the additional sole and stitch both pieces together, while still flat. Then lay the last on top. Pull the sides up over the last, lay on the apron on and hand-stitch on the last. Characteristics of true moccasin construction is the leather going all the way underneath the foot.

All the classic Bass, Sebago, etc are true moccasin construction. Check it, they are usually unlined, the leather that forms the sides run all the way under the foot. But Alden's "Leisure Hand-sewn" is not a classic moccasin. It is a conventional welted shoe and the seam on top forms no functional purpose and is solely decorative.

Yes, I guess one could consider the original Native American moccasin as the classic form, probably the original form at least (or is it?). In any case, as I understand it, you're saying that the apron seams connecting the upper and lower pieces are necessary for a shoe to be considered of moccasin construction. If true, this would put Bologna and Moccasin construction into different categories.

 

[Doctor Damage]

Would you consider a shoe lacking a stitched apron, and having a toe puff instead, a moccasin?

Please be more specific on stitched apron (photo?). I do know that toe puffs are a piece of leather or plastic (uuggh) inserted between the lining, if present, and the upper leather in the toe area. Although they may have roughly a similar purpose or goal as stitched aprons, I suspect they are completely different things.

 

[Doctor Damage]

There is a thing like "Classic Moccasin Construction".

A classic moccasin of native Americans has one layer of leather, forming the sole and the sides. On top comes the apron and a structural seam connects lower with upper section. Compared to a conventional shoe it is like a 'Tarte Tartin' (upside-down cake). Normally the structural seam is the one that joins upper and sole and is at the bottom, in a moccasin it's on top.

Moccasins without an additional sole are only useful as slippers round the house. The simplest way to add an outer sole lay the sole/side piece on top of the additional sole and stitch both pieces together, while still flat. Then lay the last on top. Pull the sides up over the last, lay on the apron on and hand-stitch on the last. Characteristics of true moccasin construction is the leather going all the way underneath the foot.

All the classic Bass, Sebago, etc are true moccasin construction. Check it, they are usually unlined, the leather that forms the sides run all the way under the foot. But Alden's "Leisure Hand-sewn" is not a classic moccasin. It is a conventional welted shoe and the seam on top forms no functional purpose and is solely decorative.

Yes, I guess one could consider the original Native American moccasin as the classic form, probably the original form at least (or is it?). In any case, as I understand it, you're saying that the apron seams connecting the upper and lower pieces are necessary for a shoe to be considered of moccasin construction. If true, this would put Bologna and Moccasin construction into different categories.

Bengal's description is marvelous. I think this issue popped up because I may have misinterpreted the diagram for the Bologna construction posted by Jcusey. Maybe the diagram is inaccurate, but it appears that the upper wraps around the bottom of the foot, like in a moccasin construction shoe. In fact, looking again, that diagram suggests that there is no plug and the upper is a continuous tube, which is quite impossible!

 

[Roger]

Please be more specific on stitched apron (photo?). I do know that toe puffs are a piece of leather or plastic (uuggh) inserted between the lining, if present, and the upper leather in the toe area. Although they may have roughly a similar purpose or goal as stitched aprons, I suspect they are completely different things.

Here's a picture of moccasin construction:

https://www.barker-shoes.co.uk/(0mdfu045nw4tov4552quakut)/Construction.aspx

Scroll down to Moccasin. There you'll see a cutaway, showing two seams at the side-top connecting the sides to what is often called the apron (sometimes called the "lake"). All the shoes I've seen described with the term "moccasin" have this structure, not the smooth vamp (on top) shown for Bologna construction. The main purpose of the stitched sides/top is to provide something of a toe box. The toe puff (of hardened leather or thermoplastic) serves the same purpose with a vamp that is not seamed the way a moccasin (or any Norwegian-toe shoe) is. My point was only that Bologna construction does not appear to require this double-seamed vamp (allowing for a toe puff to achieve the same effect), and in this way is qualitatively different from Moccasin construction.

 

[Roger]

Bengal's description is marvelous. I think this issue popped up because I may have misinterpreted the diagram for the Bologna construction posted by Jcusey. Maybe the diagram is inaccurate, but it appears that the upper wraps around the bottom of the foot, like in a moccasin construction shoe. In fact, looking again, that diagram suggests that there is no plug and the upper is a continuous tube, which is quite impossible!

Yes, I see what you mean. It does appear that way in the diagram, but I guess we have to assume that there is a seam there somewhere, perhaps in the middle--at the edge of the diagram. It wouldn't surprise me greatly to discover that with some Bologna-constructed shoes, the "outside leather" in the diagram stops just inside of the "second stitch, with a thicker insole filling the space between the two "first stitches" (there also being one of the right side).

 

[fritzl]

Roger, IMO you have a serious lack of first hand experience. No problem. But, you take part in discussions with such a energy... It seems obvious, that the majority of members is not interested in details about their i.e. shoes. My blue eyed attitude brought me more beating than listeners..., anyway. Think about it. Regards

 

[Roger]

Roger, IMO you have a serious lack of first hand experience. No problem.

Not sure what this means, fritzl! I don't see how vast experience is necessary to study and understand the details--even in the abstract--of shoe construction. All that is taking place in this thread is a discussion of some details laid out in diagrams. Does one need to have visited factories and been fitted for bespoke shoes to have valid input to such a discussion? :icon_smile_wink:

But, you take part in discussions with such a energy... It seems obvious, that the majority of members is not interested in details about their i.e. shoes. My blue eyed attitude brought me more beating than listeners..., anyway. Think about it. Regards

This forum is made up of literally thousands of members, and their interests vary widely. There are some who are very analytical and to whom construction details matter. Those to whom these things are uninteresting will simply pass by the thread. That's the way it should be. Those who are interested will peruse the thread and perhaps add to it. The fact that 95% of the forum membership couldn't care less about construction details is, in my opinion, completely irrelevant. There have, by the way, been, at this point, 663 views of this thread, so at least some interest exists!

 

[fritzl]

Does one need to have visited factories and been fitted for bespoke shoes to have valid input to such a discussion?

You already know my answer. Please, do not take offense, but there is more than theory. Quoted from Mr. Bengal Stripe: "The right fit" is not something like a mathematical formula (only one correct answer possible). Whether it's a shoe, a suit, a shirt, the "right fit" is something very personal, you might wear those things tighter or looser than what the craftsman feels is correct. Even if you are happy with the fit, having worn the item several times, you might prefer little changes somewhere (take off a smidgen on the heel and add a bit over the toe). In a bespoke garment/shoe everything can be adjusted individually. Having worn a particular item for a while, will give you a better understanding what you want to get altered before you commission the next suit, shoes, whatever. Perfection, if it ever exists, is usually not achieved instantly. Thread: https://www.styleforum.net/showthread.php?t=74264

 

[Roger]

You already know my answer. Please, do not take offense, but there is more than theory. Quoted from Mr. Bengal Stripe: "The right fit" is not something like a mathematical formula (only one correct answer possible). Whether it's a shoe, a suit, a shirt, the "right fit" is something very personal, you might wear those things tighter or looser than what the craftsman feels is correct. Even if you are happy with the fit, having worn the item several times, you might prefer little changes somewhere (take off a smidgen on the heel and add a bit over the toe). In a bespoke garment/shoe everything can be adjusted individually. Having worn a particular item for a while, will give you a better understanding what you want to get altered before you commission the next suit, shoes, whatever. Perfection, if it ever exists, is usually not achieved instantly. Thread: https://www.styleforum.net/showthread.php?t=74264

I fully agree with Bengal-stripe's assertion re fit and the benefits of bespoke shoes, but am having trouble connecting it with the subject of this thread.

 

[Andy]

This wisdom is now in the perminent collection of Tutorials linked from the Home Page! THANKS Jcusey!

 

[Doctor Damage]

Does anyone have any diagrams or info on the "Littleway" construction method?

 

[bengal-stripe]

"Littleway" is the English name for what is known elsewhere as "Blake". There might be minute differences between the two methods,
but nothing major. Both methods have a row of stitching, inside the shoe, running around the insole

Church's does (or at least used to) offer a few styles (with thin soles) in "Littlewood construction".

 

[Matt S]

Goodyear welted shoes confuse me a bit. On some of my goodyear welted shoes I see a row of stitching around the edge of the sole, while others have a clean sole with no stitching visible. Can someone explain how the outer sole is attached in this case?

 

[jcusey]

Goodyear welted shoes confuse me a bit. On some of my goodyear welted shoes I see a row of stitching around the edge of the sole, while others have a clean sole with no stitching visible. Can someone explain how the outer sole is attached in this case?

Do you mean on the top of the sole or on the bottom? If on the bottom, the shoes are close-channeled, meaning that a diagonal slit has been cut into the sole starting very close to the edge. This slit is peeled back, the welt is stitched through the sole in the trench thereby revealed, and the flap folded back in place and glued down. The same thing can be done with other construction methods.

If on the top of the sole, the stitching is probably there; it's just camouflaged by the notches (called wheeling in shoe-speak).

 

[Jim In Sunny So Calif]

@ jcusey
Thank you for the education about shoe construction - a topic that I expect most of us don't know much about.

Thanks to others for adding to the discussion.

Cheers, Jim.

 

[bengal-stripe]

Goodyear welted shoes confuse me a bit. On some of my goodyear welted shoes I see a row of stitching around the edge of the sole, while others have a clean sole with no stitching visible. Can someone explain how the outer sole is attached in this case?

Here is a photograph of the production process for channelled soles:

https://www.carminashoemaker.com/