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My late father was violently prejudiced. He detested any shirt with an open collar, insisting on a button-down collar at all times. The only exceptions he made were for tux shirts and fishing shirts, and if he could have gotten away with a button-down on the former he would have.

Open collars, he explained, were only fit for "crooners and lounge lizards."

For years I adhered to my father's views, even as I rejected his opinions on other matters, such as the saxophone, broccoli and drinking in the morning.

But as I near age 60, I have come around to open collars for sport shirts.

It's been a gradual process, largely confined to the LL Bean canvas shirt. (The shirts are now referred to as "lakewashed." I doubt the veracity of this description, although the image of LL Bean workers trooping down to the nearest lake or pond with armfuls of shirts is pleasing.)

The other frequent use of open collars has been fishing shirts, ranging from somewhat expensive bush shirts made by Filson and Orvis to high-tech synthetic shirts made by a bunch of outfits.

Over the years I occasionally picked up a vintage shirt here and there, usually a wool/cotton mix like Viyella, and these usually had open collars (and dual chest pockets, the other distinguishing feature). I gradually came to like them more than their button-down counterparts.

My feeling now is: If you're going to go casual, go for it.

This is an inversion of the Flusser hierarchy of degrees of dressiness, of course. But that applies to, well, dress shirts. Not something you wear in a canoe.

Which is a long way of getting to the LL Bean shirts I just received:

https://imageshack.com/i/pnIgdYIXj]
]
[/URL]
]
[/URL][/URL]

The red plaid is "slightly fitted," which I worried about, needlessly. The XL is plenty roomy.

The greyish one is lighter and in the traditional (that is, voluminous) fit

And I include the "lakewashed" canvas for reference.

The one scenario in which I defer to the buttondown sport shirt is for use under a sweater. I do not like collar points outside the sweater. (Or jacket for that matter.) To me it looks too 1950s undergraduate (on a good day) or lounge lizard/wannabe gangster (on a bad day).

https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/123600?moe=ordhistory&csp=a

https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/123794?moe=ordhistory&csp=a
 

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I have had somewhat of an adversion to open collared shirts, mostly because in my experience when worn without a tie, and I often go tie-less, they somehow develope a life of their own and do something embarrassing. Lately I have been practicing better collar management and keeping them inline. I find I am having better luck with slightly shorter collars, and I think recently many non-button down sport shirts do have slightly shorter collars, or at least to my eye.
 

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Very interesting. I have always thought of "open collar" as referring to just going tieless and I think this is my first time hearing it to describe a collar without buttons.

I want to like these types of shirts, and I have 3 or 4 of them, but I am just not a fan. There is a certain comfort/security I feel with button down collars and when I wear the spread collared shirt I feel too open (fitting description, I suppose). On the rare occasion I have to wear a tie, I don't mind them since the top button is buttoned and the collar doesn't flop all over the place.
 

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Very interesting. I have always thought of "open collar" as referring to just going tieless and I think this is my first time hearing it to describe a collar without buttons.

I want to like these types of shirts, and I have 3 or 4 of them, but I am just not a fan. There is a certain comfort/security I feel with button down collars and when I wear the spread collared shirt I feel too open (fitting description, I suppose). On the rare occasion I have to wear a tie, I don't mind them since the top button is buttoned and the collar doesn't flop all over the place.
Very interesting. Button-down collars are quintessentially American, but many other countries have less of a tradition of wearing them. When I lived in India, they were unknown, and I had to teach my tailor how to make them using pictures of Gant shirts from the New Yorker. And paper and cloth patterns I cut myself and experimented with (alongside the tailor) before getting a satisfying roll to the collar. Most collars were long or short points, and spread collars were also unknown. The nice thing about having a good tailor (inexpensive in that country in the sixties because no one had ready-made clothes) is that you can design your own shirts and trousers, and experiment with styles and cuts.

Some cultures actually wear a short point collar shirt with a jacket but without a tie -- and they button the collar so that it is closed around the neck. This style was adopted by Iranians in the years following the revolution there. I have also seen Eastern Europeans wear shirts in this way with jackets.
 

· (aka TKI67)
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Controversy regarding nomenclature notwithstanding, I just ordered one of the Bean canvas shirts in blue. I am, at the moment, wearing their similarly cut blue denim shirt, today with their five pocket cords in tan and a hoof pick belt from Leather Man, a very comfortable outfit, perfect for going out and gardening, as the weather is in the sixties. Further FWIW if I wanted to be very precise, I'd call this a button up shirt with a plain collar, i.e., not point and not spread, certainly not button down, or just a shirt with a collar. I am uncomfortable with wearing such shirts with their collars buttoned. To my post-war USA sensibility that just does not work.
 

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I like spread collar tattersall shirts even though they aren't strictly trad canon. But I find I don't wear mine much, because the time of year when I want to wear tattersall is also the time of year I want to wear sweaters, and I also don't like the collar out of sweater look (makes me think of the Pevensies just arrived in Narnia). It's a bit of a predicament.
 

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My late father was violently prejudiced. He detested any shirt with an open collar, insisting on a button-down collar at all times. The only exceptions he made were for tux shirts and fishing shirts, and if he could have gotten away with a button-down on the former he would have.

Open collars, he explained, were only fit for "crooners and lounge lizards."

For years I adhered to my father's views, even as I rejected his opinions on other matters, such as the saxophone, broccoli and drinking in the morning.

But as I near age 60, I have come around to open collars for sport shirts.

It's been a gradual process, largely confined to the LL Bean canvas shirt. (The shirts are now referred to as "lakewashed." I doubt the veracity of this description, although the image of LL Bean workers trooping down to the nearest lake or pond with armfuls of shirts is pleasing.)

The other frequent use of open collars has been fishing shirts, ranging from somewhat expensive bush shirts made by Filson and Orvis to high-tech synthetic shirts made by a bunch of outfits.

Over the years I occasionally picked up a vintage shirt here and there, usually a wool/cotton mix like Viyella, and these usually had open collars (and dual chest pockets, the other distinguishing feature). I gradually came to like them more than their button-down counterparts.

My feeling now is: If you're going to go casual, go for it.

This is an inversion of the Flusser hierarchy of degrees of dressiness, of course. But that applies to, well, dress shirts. Not something you wear in a canoe.

Which is a long way of getting to the LL Bean shirts I just received:

https://imageshack.com/i/pnIgdYIXj]
]
[/URL]
]
[/URL][/URL]

The red plaid is "slightly fitted," which I worried about, needlessly. The XL is plenty roomy.

The greyish one is lighter and in the traditional (that is, voluminous) fit

And I include the "lakewashed" canvas for reference.

The one scenario in which I defer to the buttondown sport shirt is for use under a sweater. I do not like collar points outside the sweater. (Or jacket for that matter.) To me it looks too 1950s undergraduate (on a good day) or lounge lizard/wannabe gangster (on a bad day).

https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/123600?moe=ordhistory&csp=a

https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/123794?moe=ordhistory&csp=a
Interesting that you are more embracing of the open collar in your "older age." Have some years on you and never knew that those with a traditional bent would have been a bit averse to them for sport shirts. Have a few button- down short-sleeved sport shirts, (largely seersucker), but most of my summer wear is divided between polos and open collar. I, too, wear button down under sweaters and don't like collar points outside of the collar.
 

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I've started to wear spread collar shirts with sportscoats much more often (or did wear, before COVID). The collars stay tucked in the confines of the jacket just fine. I've grown quite fond of them. Agree with you about not having the points protrude from a sweater.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
https://imageshack.com/i/pnfJVzCMj]

https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/125...irt-SR0&csp=a&searchTerm=beanflex shirt&pos=1

LL Bean has this shirt, which is a little lighter than the canvas one and does not have flaps on the pockets. Since I often use these shirts for fishing I am of two minds about that. On the one hand, the flap gets in the way. On the other hand, without the flap things fall out. So if I really don't want to lose something carry it somewhere else, right?

I also appreciate the lack of shoulder strap/epaulets, which are frequently found on "safari" shirts. I always feel like I'm in line for a field promotion.
 

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Some of the shirt terminology discrepancies are due to ignorant retailers (example calling a sport jacket a blazer)!

Shirts are either button down fronts or pull overs. Men's shirts are NEVER "Tops"!!

Polo shirts look odd if the top button is fastened, but if it would help my golf game …

If you wear you shirt open, be careful not to have too many buttons unfasted. Two is plenty.

From The Encyclopedia of Men's Clothes:

Collar styles:

Button Down, originally a sport shirt thus the least dressy. The collar was originally buttoned-down by polo players to keep it from flapping in their faces. Now a business classic, it was introduced to the USA by Brooks Brothers in 1896. Because of its sporty origins the button down is not acceptable for dressy eveningwear nor with a double-breasted suit.

Hidden Button Down, the buttons fasten under the collar (the button holes does not go all the way through to the top layer of the shirt collar.

English Spread is the most formal collar and gives you room for a wider tie knot. (It's best for long or narrow faces, and thin necks).

Straight or Point (long narrow collars are best for round or broad faces). The "standard" length of a straight collar is 2 ¾ " although designers can go longer or shorter for a style change.

Straight or Point collars can be varied in their distance apart for a narrow or wider stance.

Pin are straight or point collars with a hole in each side of the collar for a pin. Pinned or eyelet collars were popular during the late 1920's and early 1930's, the pin pierced the collar fabric (or was placed through eyelets) under the tie pulling the wings of the collar together raising the tie. Collar bars came later which slipped or slid on the edges of the collar and didn't need to pierce the collar fabric.

Tab collars have a snap or button and loop that connect the collar behind the knot of the tie. It serves the same function as a collar bar or pin of pushing the tie knot up and out. A small four-in-hand knot is best with a tab. This collar works well for guys with narrow or square faces, but round or broad faced men may appear to be choking!

"What's the matter with the clothes I'm wearing?
Can't you tell that your tie's too wide?
Maybe I should buy some old tab collars?
Welcome back to the age of jive.
Where have you been hidin' out lately, honey?
You can't dress trashy till you spend a lot of money.
Everybody's talkin' 'bout the new sound
Funny, but it's still rock and roll to me"
Billy Joel
It's Still Rock and Roll To Me -- 1980
 

· (aka TKI67)
Bowtie
Joined
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3,687 Posts
Some of the shirt terminology discrepancies are due to ignorant retailers (example calling a sport jacket a blazer)!

Shirts are either button down fronts or pull overs. Men's shirts are NEVER "Tops"!!

Polo shirts look odd if the top button is fastened, but if it would help my golf game …

If you wear you shirt open, be careful not to have too many buttons unfasted. Two is plenty.

From The Encyclopedia of Men's Clothes:

Collar styles:

Button Down, originally a sport shirt thus the least dressy. The collar was originally buttoned-down by polo players to keep it from flapping in their faces. Now a business classic, it was introduced to the USA by Brooks Brothers in 1896. Because of its sporty origins the button down is not acceptable for dressy eveningwear nor with a double-breasted suit.

Hidden Button Down, the buttons fasten under the collar (the button holes does not go all the way through to the top layer of the shirt collar.

English Spread is the most formal collar and gives you room for a wider tie knot. (It's best for long or narrow faces, and thin necks).

Straight or Point (long narrow collars are best for round or broad faces). The "standard" length of a straight collar is 2 ¾ " although designers can go longer or shorter for a style change.

Straight or Point collars can be varied in their distance apart for a narrow or wider stance.

Pin are straight or point collars with a hole in each side of the collar for a pin. Pinned or eyelet collars were popular during the late 1920's and early 1930's, the pin pierced the collar fabric (or was placed through eyelets) under the tie pulling the wings of the collar together raising the tie. Collar bars came later which slipped or slid on the edges of the collar and didn't need to pierce the collar fabric.

Tab collars have a snap or button and loop that connect the collar behind the knot of the tie. It serves the same function as a collar bar or pin of pushing the tie knot up and out. A small four-in-hand knot is best with a tab. This collar works well for guys with narrow or square faces, but round or broad faced men may appear to be choking!

"What's the matter with the clothes I'm wearing?
Can't you tell that your tie's too wide?
Maybe I should buy some old tab collars?
Welcome back to the age of jive.
Where have you been hidin' out lately, honey?
You can't dress trashy till you spend a lot of money.
Everybody's talkin' 'bout the new sound
Funny, but it's still rock and roll to me"
Billy Joel
It's Still Rock and Roll To Me -- 1980
On the matter of buttoning your polo to the top of the placket, I am pretty sure it would not help your golf game any more than changing your name to Bubba or buying a pink driver. This, however, will always help: loose grip. Cheers!
 
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