[Groover]

We've been down this road before:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=79114&highlight=Loake

IMO, the 1880 range are nice shoes, good styling and comfortable lasts. However, the leather is NOT up to the quality of Church's, C&J (standard range), and the higher end manufacturers.

What I am NOT saying is that they're a poor shoe because they're not and hell I've had enough pairs to know. But having my Loake Norwich and my C&J hand in hand the leather is better on the C&J, hence the difference in price.

With the British shoe industry (in Northampton that is) being so incestuous the price difference between the remaining manufacturers comes down to two fundamental costs:

Cost of materials.
Volume of work undertaken.

As Tricker (on the other thread) stated, all manufacturers are fighting for each others business, and each manufacturer has it's own place in that market. That was one of the reasons discussed about the Sargents downfall in that they didn't have that market place, but I digress. Tricker stated that the skins all come from more or less the same place so it depends on the quality purchased to reflect in the finished shoe. In addition, companies with high volume can offer lower prices but certainly not to the tune of 100-150 in the difference between Loake & C&J for instance.

That said I'm still happy to buy Loakes whilst in the sales, there's some good deals out there.

 

[Groover]

This is what Tricker said:

And this:

EG and Lobbs shoes are more traditionally made than ours, they are bedlasted, pulled on by hand, Lobbs make 100 pairs per day, EG less, something between 20 and 50 per day, there are more man hours going into their shoes, more hand work at lasting, and a lot more time spent on finishing them after the shoe is constructed, they are more likely to use only the most expensive leathers as they can sell more of these at higher prices due to their name, and hand lasting methods, so yes, they are using better leathers than say 50% of other shoes being made elsewhere, but the price offsets this, the others are using these materials for their top lines only.

When you last by hand you can use more delicate leathers, if you put that same leather into a machine laster, you are inevitably going to have some damages, which costs money, so a more durable leather is used, this work isnt suitable for a lot of the bigger manufacturers who make more pairs per day to fulfill orders, its really only for lobbs and greens to make. We make 200 pairs a day, C&J over 400 pairs a day, churches similar, its just not practical for us to make this shoe on a regular basis. A hand lasted shoe is far superior to a machine lasted shoe, it gives a much better feather, enabling a much closer stitch and trim, and is an artform, the true skill of shoe making that hasnt changed for hundreds of years.

An example of why some brands are cheaper than others is that most of the cheaper lines are stitched aloft, where the groove is cut into the sole as it is rounded, and then stitched into the groove, if the shoe is channelled it is slit when rounded, then opened on another machine, stitched , then solutioned inside the channel, then rubbed down when dry, also 90% of our channel have a 'london waist' which is bevelled, and more time is taken to build this up, then the finished sole will be hand inked in a fancy design, obviously the cost of these man hours have to be passed onto the customer.

That pair of loakes posted is an example of this, they are stitched aloft with basic wheeled design on the bottom, its much faster to make. Also some companies have to lower prices to stay in business, the shoe trade is dire nowadays, in years to come there will only be the likes of lobbs and greens left that are made in england, we closed one of our english shops the other year, not enough business in the UK, most of our work is for Japan, same as a few others, luckily for us they are absolutely crazy about english shoes. Ive already been made redundant once, some guys i work with have had it twice, experience is nearly non existent now when looking for workers as people are unwilling to risk redundancy in their later years. Ive had to be loaned out to Lobbs before to do some sewing for them after hours when their guy left to go work at greens, and last year C&J were prepared to take someone off the street to teach welt sewing, the average age of the workers in some places is 55, so its not looking good.

 

[Groover]

Thanks, Groover. So we are looking at better leather and more handworking = more cost= higher price.

But for me the law of diminishing return means that Loake 1880s is as high as I want to go.

Having said that I would be interested in seeing photos of well- worn higher end shoes. For me durability is very important. Waste not:want not.

Yes Hector, that is in essence the nature of the business in Northampton. As I said in my earlier post, each manufacturer has it's own "section" of the market. Considering the UK shoe industry has been in decline for a long long time each firm has had to market itself and position itself very carefully to the point where each has it's own part and from what we can see in the current climate is surviving off it.

I would say that would be true for the tanneries also, they need to supply products to suit all customers. As Tricker said, Greens and Lobb etc buy the expensive skins because they know they can make a return on them, whereas Loakes, C&J, Church's et all wouldn't be making the required level of profit to justify the expense, so in turn use the other grades of skin available and have manufacturing processes to maximise their product output.

He also pointed out that all manufacturers had the capability to produce any shoe as good as they wanted to, essentially they have access to the same products and use the same processes, which I beleive can only be a good thing as it raises the bar for eveyone to stay on their toes.

You're clearly happy with your Loakes and that's a good thing. As a company they seem to be doing well, so I guess the old saying "If something aint broke, don't fix it" would be their motto. The new website is good with some videos on how shoes are made.

 

[Groover]

Legate & Norwich if I'm not mistaken JJL5000?

My compliments on the Church's, those look superb!

I've ordered a couple of pairs of Norwich as it's being discontinued on the 029 last, a favourite of mine.

 

[Groover]

you can get much much better value for money with the Church's seconds that Herrings shoes sell on their website

Just picked up a pair of Tasmania in Black Calf :icon_cheers:

 

[Groover]

Hmm... we'll see!

Incidentally, I've just inspected another pair of Loakes I have, the Dainite-soled Badminton wing-tip brogue. They too have a plastic layer in the heel, and what appears to be a plastic welt strip! They also have part-cloth lining, and the uppers are a bit stiff. Good value for money for a pair of gardening shoes, yes. Just acceptable as casual wear.

I have considered Badminton as a pair for knocking about with the boys down the pub on a saturday, BUT, I know Church's Grafton is waiting in the background.....hmm:devil: