Speaking for myself, I think there is less of a need for a suit in some aspects of business these days. I recently spent 3 months working with a retail client- I would have been highly overdressed wearing a suit, and had to spend my time there with sports jackets and slacks. Ditto for most of the tech industry. Also globalization gets me to India and China often- and about half the time a sports jacket is whats needed vs a suit. My last few bespoke orders have been for trousers and sports jackets.

 

There was a time in the not terribly distant past when discussions of Savile Row tailoring were among the most common, popular and informative of AAAC threads.

Some examples, perhaps?

 

Some examples, perhaps?

Certainly Manton's discussion of Savile Row Style, the comprehensive Savile Row Tailors thread, and Darren Beaman's explanation of soft vs hard tailoring and its reflection in various Savile Row firms' work were valuable and enlightening conversations. There were many discussions about how to pick a Savile Row tailor and what to expect in working with one. The debate over Savile Row versus Milanese tailoring, the discussions on the merits of visiting Savile Row tailors generally and some individual tailors specifically, and the analyses of some specific Savile Row-made garments certainly come to mind as well.

 

Or has AAAC lost its lustre. There is a thread on another forum which seems to indicate that AAAC is moving in the direction of the man in the street and away from the connoisseur. I am not qualified to say but if that is the case and perhaps it is the right direction for AAAC but if it was true it would mean that those sort of questions would be asked elsewhere. I for one have found the SR thread started by medwards very informative and will look at any SR here with interest.

 

Or has AAAC lost its lustre. There is a thread on another forum which seems to indicate that AAAC is moving in the direction of the man in the street and away from the connoisseur. I am not qualified to say but if that is the case and perhaps it is the right direction for AAAC but if it was true it would mean that those sort of questions would be asked elsewhere. I for one have found the SR thread started by medwards very informative and will look at any SR here with interest.

I am tempted to agree with this. I have noticed that the subject matter is alive, well and quite prevalent on another forum which shall remain unnamed. The only issue I have with this other forum is that it somehow comes across as being a bit affected and makes me wonder whether some of those posts are genuine. There seems to be a lot more rule-mongering (and queries about rules) and enthusiasm about RTW here which may contribute to the appearance of being slightly more pedestrian. Despite the former element, it seems a lot more egalitarian over here, which suits my temperament better.

Anyway, is the feeling that the relevant discussions have decreased in relative terms or in absolute terms? It might just mean that people are less fixated about a narrow strip that used to be part of Earl of Burlington's leased backyard and are quite happy to venture to other parts of London or indeed England in search of a suit. Even A&S left the street, so I suppose that it would be understandable if customers' eyes start wandering off to other neighbourhoods...

 

Anyway, is the feeling that the relevant discussions have decreased in relative terms or in absolute terms?

I have a feeling (but have not done an actual count) that it is both. Again, some of that may not be surprising. As the the fundamental issues are addressed and the most common questions answered, there is a tendency to look to the search function and achives for information rather than to post a new inquiry. Certainly, those of us whose initial response tends to be "see the similar threads link" or "use the search function," contribute to this o). And perhaps the interests of the membership are indeed changing...either because their initial questions have been answered, their interests have evolved over time or they are quite simply different members. There is little question that some of the AAAC participants who were the most vocal in this arena post less often -- or not at all -- in recent times. That said, is there a broader question of Savile Row's place in the sartorial firmament? Is Savile Row losing its allure...even among indiduals who have a substantial interest in clothing...and consequently, is it less of an ongoing focus for discussion here and elsewhere? As one who tends to explore a wide variety of other publications and websites, I must say that I certainly find fewer articles about Savile Row and its tailors today than I did just a few years ago. Why do you think that is?

 

I think that some level of caution is warranted when browsing through various fora on the Internet because I do not believe that they, collectively or individually, represent a cross section of bespoke tailoring clientele. I have noticed that participants on one forum is not much different from that of another. No matter how diverse the opinions may appear, they are even collectively a mere minority. I would even venture to guess that most clients are not even aware of fora like this and furthermore probably not even care if they were aware of them.

From what I can gather, target consumer interests are, and have been for several years, very high, as reflected in the order books of many tailors. Hopefully, forum participants from the trade can confirm or deny this.

I think that you are right about the lower frequency of SR, and bespoke tailoring, being taken up by the general and fashion press. I believe that is because there is not much that is new to talk about. When the trade got its renewed life several years ago, it was newsworthy even though the substance had not changed all that much. The New Bespoke Movement, new ownerships, new leaderships, new RTW offerings et al provided seeds for press articles. The likes of Boateng and R James flashed some bright lining and stark shoulders and made news. Now all that is, well, old news without any rhyme or charm. New year, same gimmicks. The only new thing is the boring politics surrounding some trade associations.

Some will surely feel a bit of pain from the cull in the City this year but I believe that the trade in general is robust. But then, some feedback from trade members would be helpful.

 

I am tempted to agree with this. I have noticed that the subject matter is alive, well and quite prevalent on another forum which shall remain unnamed. The only issue I have with this other forum is that it somehow comes across as being a bit affected and makes me wonder whether some of those posts are genuine. There seems to be a lot more rule-mongering (and queries about rules) and enthusiasm about RTW here which may contribute to the appearance of being slightly more pedestrian. Despite the former element, it seems a lot more egalitarian over here, which suits my temperament better.

Anyway, is the feeling that the relevant discussions have decreased in relative terms or in absolute terms? It might just mean that people are less fixated about a narrow strip that used to be part of Earl of Burlington's leased backyard and are quite happy to venture to other parts of London or indeed England in search of a suit. Even A&S left the street, so I suppose that it would be understandable if customers' eyes start wandering off to other neighbourhoods...

I think that that forum has taken most of the SR discussion since that is its focus.

 

I would have thought that the BBC's recent Savile Row programme might have spun off a few more debates or stimulated interest, though it did initiate a long thread on the programme itself. Perhaps though there is something in the economic climate, and also the other points you (Medwards) makes are no doubt true in different degrees. Add to that Culverwood's points and perhaps the lack of people around the forum with SR experience to discuss the subject (though since there are so many here who still post on, and discuss, high-end shoes, I would doubt that is entirely true...) then in sum you have your answer.

Maybe you should post a poll - how many here have commissioned or bought from Savile Row in the last 6 months, how many intend to in the next six months, etc... On the basis of threads on the forum, I've only noticed two or three real bespoke clothing threads prompted by new purchases: Mafoofan's Italian stuff and one (maybe two) SR bespoke suits.

 

While SR is still to me the pinnacle of tailoring there are many off Row tailors and quite a fews of these are not too far off. My tailor in the 70/80's was on Sackville St and my current one is in the Piccadilly Arcade both giving good service for what to me is a reasonable cost.

I am not a hedge-fund manager or an oil baron and I am sure that there are people who can pay twice what I do without thinking. To me that is the problem and the facination of SR, are you paying for what may be better or perhaps you are paying above the odds for their advertising and rent?

 

Or has AAAC lost its lustre. There is a thread on another forum which seems to indicate that AAAC is moving in the direction of the man in the street and away from the connoisseur.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the appeal of AAAC was that you could rub shoulders with the connoisseurs at the same time as helping out (and learning from) the sartorial virgins.

All boffins or all virgins would be boring wouldn't it...?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the appeal of AAAC was that you could rub shoulders with the connoisseurs at the same time as helping out (and learning from) the sartorial virgins.

All boffins or all virgins would be boring wouldn't it...?

Yes, I agree with this. But I think the concern is not that we have too many novices, but that we are retaining too few connoisseurs. As you say, all anything would be boring.

As to the greater issue, I don't think what we're seeing here necessarily represents a trend for the Row. It's not as though the previous bespoke discussion has been replaced by talk of tailors elsewhere, or even of RTW alternatives. Instead, there seems to be less talk of bespoke in specific, and of high-end clothing in general. Now there's more discussion of budget options and a greater focus on the basic rules and requirements of conservative dress. That's fine, but it's not the type of thing that fosters long-term participation, I'd guess.

In fairness, I don't recall substantive bespoke threads being that common even back in the day. Photographs were a precious commodity, especially pics that could demonstrate the differences in various house styles. Perhaps having had several years to accumulate threads makes such discussion seem more routine than it really was?

 

Yes, I agree with this. But I don't think the concern is that we have too many novices, but are retaining too few connoisseurs. As you say, all anything would be boring.

As to the greater issue, I don't think what we're seeing here necessarily represents a trend for the Row. It's not as though the previous bespoke discussion has been replaced by talk of tailors elsewhere, or even of RTW alternatives. Instead, there seems to be less talk of bespoke in specific, and of high-end clothing in general. Now there's more discussion of budget options and a greater focus on the basic rules and requirements of conservative dress. That's fine, but it's not the type of thing that fosters long-term membership, I'd guess.

In fairness, I don't recall substantive bespoke threads being that common even back in the day. Photographs were a precious commodity, especially pics that could demonstrate the differences in various house styles. Perhaps having had several years to accumulate threads makes such discussion seem more routine than it really was?

This is a good description, except not all Savile Row houses have really been written about here, so a number of loopholes to be filled. With the majority of the best tailors on earth working for Savile Row companies, one way or another, there is much more to be said.

While cheap suits are declining in sales I think those that like suits are turning away from big name brands to custom, which is good for tailors.

 

I think there are waaaay more new, younger members than there were when I first joined. I remember being the youngest one on this board(16 at the time?). Now's not the case anymore. There are quite a few members who are attending undergrad now or just going to grad school.

The assessment that some older members don't post as much anymore is true also. And I must confess, I don't find myself hitting the 'post' button as much either. A forum is an ever changing thing. It has it's moments and its fits, but nevertheless, if there are enough people who stick around and i don't doubt they will, the forum will remain.

I believe we are also growing in size and in turn a little distant. When I posted my first prom thread it spun into 3 and some pages of comments and discussion. Almost felt like a "forum event". Then and along with my trip to NY - which warranted it's own thread, is when I got to talking with Alex Kabbaz and he even jokingly offered to buy(or was it tailor?) my first suit!(I still remember that Mr. Kabbaz and your wife alluding to jokes about my back side 8)). That was also when I posted my first "Today I wore..." thread, which encouraged others to share as well and Andy was forced to lump it all into that big megathread sticky at the top of the page. The atmosphere changed a bit I believe.

As far as Saville Row things go. In the past year the Row was invaded by companies such as A&F, the cost went up and some left the row. Maybe these changes also forced people to look around elsewhere for bespeaking and satisfaction was found, rendering the Row not as untouchable as it use to be.

Who knows, maybe we are just getting older and prespectives are changing , I know mine has.

 

Last night, I spent some time reviewing many of the newspaper articles that have appeared about Savile Row and Savile Row firms over the past few years. It certainly appears that much -- if not most -- of this ink has been about significant change on the Row: retailers as well as new tailors invading this bastion, the growing competition (and success) of off-row tailors, Savile Row firms offering ready-to-wear and made-to-measure attire, SR clothing being made in other lands, the challenges of rising costs -- particularly rents -- and the question of whether Savile Row can withstand all these pressures. It would seem to me that such coverage might very well have an impact on how individuals -- particularly younger ones -- regard the Row and how much interest they might have in discussions about it.

 

But then this publicity a) is publicity which gets the brand known b) shows that SR is opening up and should therefore be more popular with, shall we say, less traditional dressers, and heighten their interest. At a very basic level, there would be nothing more enticing that knowing that SR is becoming affordable, despite what that might mean to traditionalists. If the rungs of the ladder are extended down to street level, surely more people will start climbing it. It's like financial inclusion for the sartorially-inclined. In addition, rags like Arena, GQ, and Esquire don't denigrate the Row - they hold it up as an aspiration (though they could talk about it more than they do).

 

At a very basic level, there would be nothing more enticing that knowing that SR is becoming affordable, despite what that might mean to traditionalists.

I think you are absolutely right, but I fear that Savil Row is becoming less affordable (to Americans at least) as the dollar falls and full bespoke prices rise. Certainly, made-to-measure and entry-level bespoke offerings might mitigate against this, but in these arenas SR faces rather substantial and effective competition.

 

My tuppence worth:

From a practical point of view, discussion of Savile Row comes up when one is seeking information, i.e., in the market for a bespoke suit. After obtaining advice one is faced with choosing a tailor, and, if one is so inclined, reporting the experience. The next step could be trying out another tailor, and making comparisons. Speaking for myself, given the travel constraint and the availability of the cutter, the time taken for suit is in the region of a year. For two suits in sequence that would be two years.

Really, not much can usefully be said on a day to day basis.

 

I think you are absolutely right, but I fear that Savil Row is becoming less affordable (to Americans at least) as the dollar falls and full bespoke prices rise. Certainly, made-to-measure and entry-level bespoke offerings might mitigate against this, but in these arenas SR faces rather substantial and effective competition.

I for one can absolutely confirm your fear. As an American living in NY, I no longer buy my suits from my Savile Row tailors, mainly because of price. I've found the price for a suit is up over 50% from ten years ago largely due to the exchange rate.

But also, I've travelled more to Asia and found a good tailor who to my eye can produce nearly the same quality for a much lower price. Also, here in NY there are now more bespoke shops and visiting tailors.

I guess my tailors in London were never truly old school Savile Row anyway- my preference has always been slightly fashion forward- so Timothy Everest and Richard James. I guess some would say they are SR and some might not.

 

I think you are absolutely right, but I fear that Savil Row is becoming less affordable (to Americans at least) as the dollar falls and full bespoke prices rise. Certainly, made-to-measure and entry-level bespoke offerings might mitigate against this, but in these arenas SR faces rather substantial and effective competition.

I for one can absolutely confirm your fear. As an American living in NY, I no longer buy my suits from my Savile Row tailors, mainly because of price. I've found the price for a suit is up over 50% from ten years ago largely due to the exchange rate.

But also, I've travelled more to Asia and found a good tailor who to my eye can produce nearly the same quality for a much lower price. Also, here in NY there are now more bespoke shops and visiting tailors.

I guess my tailors in London were never truly old school Savile Row anyway- my preference has always been slightly fashion forward- so Timothy Everest and Richard James. I guess some would say they are SR and some might not.

 

interesting topic/ thread! Personally, as an American I think SR clothing is far beyond my reach-- both because I can't make three trips to london to do it formally, and because the SR tailor visits to the states still battle the falling dollar against the pound sterling.

If I could get a bespoke suit from one of the Greats cut from a nice cloth for around $3600, I'd probably go for it (paying half up front, the other upon completion) during one of their visits. As things stand these days, I don't think that comes remotely close to the cost of a suit from A&S, Huntsman, Dege, etc.

Hell, MTM isn't even an easy option for many Americans, as it requires going back for at least one fitting to the high-end department store-- which isn't always that close to where a person lives.

 

interesting topic/ thread! Personally, as an American I think SR clothing is far beyond my reach-- both because I can't make three trips to london to do it formally, and because the SR tailor visits to the states still battle the falling dollar against the pound sterling.

If I could get a bespoke suit from one of the Greats cut from a nice cloth for around $3600, I'd probably go for it (paying half up front, the other upon completion) during one of their visits. As things stand these days, I don't think that comes remotely close to the cost of a suit from A&S, Huntsman, Dege, etc.

Hell, MTM isn't even an easy option for many Americans, as it requires going back for at least one fitting to the high-end department store-- which isn't always that close to where a person lives.

I would pick up on your remark on the USD/GBP rate and add that, the overwhelming majority of forum participants being American, those two factors (Exchange rate and US-centered-ness) only amplify each other. Fewer Americans feel rich enough not only to buy SR, but also to travel to the UK or the rest of Europe, therefore show less interest in SR than previously. Conversely, my family and I will hit the Freeport, ME. outlets over the summer and load up on (casual) clothing, especially for our growing adolescent sons.

I am Euro-based and feel fortunate that the GBP/Euro rate has improved (from my selfish point of view) by fifteen percent or more in a year or so. That makes SR more affordable and I am taking adavantage of it while this state of affairs lasts. Bear in mind, however, that I have to pay 17.5 % VAT on top of what you pay in GBP. The cheapest Paris-London return on Eurostar sells for 77 €, when you can get it.

A consequence of the USD/GBP question is the strain it puts on the well-being, and possibly even the survival, of the more US-dependent SR firms, which are probably also the ones most often mentioned on the fora. My own tailor seems more UK-, and Europe-, oriented than many.

Frog in Suit

 

This raises an interesting question: Are Savile Row firms -- many of which looked to America for deliverance in the past -- now looking elsewhere? Is this having an impact on how many firms travel to the US and how often they do so? Have those firms which concentrate on European, Middle Eastern or Asia clients prospered more than others? Are major new markets emerging? Will any of this have an impact on Savile Row's style, quality or image?

 

This raises an interesting question: Are Savile Row firms -- many of which looked to America for deliverance in the past -- now looking elsewhere? Is this having an impact on how many firms travel to the US and how often they do so? Have those firms which concentrate on European, Middle Eastern or Asia clients prospered more than others? Are major new markets emerging? Will any of this have an impact on Savile Row's style, quality or image?

Interesting questions.

I am sure that many SR tailors, if not all of them, are like other providers of luxury goods and would like to penetrate, say, the Chinese or Indian markets, where there is a growing number of so-called "high net-worth individuals". I suspect that the Middle East is already being serviced, either by travelling tailors, or through a strong presence of Middle Eastern residents or visitors in London, not that there may not be room for growth there as well. I think that the obstacle to more prospection of more overseas markets lies in the small size of the firms themselves, which are tiny compared to the big apparel brand names. If you are a one man band, you cannot afford to spend all your time travelling. Advertising is expensive. The traditional way of acquiring customers through personal introductions is essentially free, but you must have a minimal customer base in a given country to serve as "seed" and generate more business before travelling becomes viable. In other words, you have marginal impact on your market.
Diversification, as in other fields, must be of paramount importance. If your US customer base represents twenty percent of your revenue, I suspect you can afford to lose half of that business because of the GBP/USD rate, other things being equal. (If the US constitutes fifty percent of your business, losing half of that could be dire indeed.) Continental Europe is geographically close, the Euro is currently strong, which may compensate at least in part for the drop in American business. UK customers must be safest in that regard, as no exchange risk is involved. Using outworkers rather than salaried employees must also give a firm some flexibility to retrench during a downturn.
As for an impact on quality and image, I should imagine that customers in any "new markets", at least the type of men likely to choose SR bespoke over mega-brands, would be attracted precisely by the quality, traditions and style of the Row. The climate they live in may make them order lighter weight cloths, I suppose, but I should think they still would want the "SR experience", for lack of a more precise term.
The above is only the result of my (educated? :icon_smile_wink guesses.
Frog in Suit

 

The exchange rate situation raises an interesting opportunity. It's a great time for Europeans to buy UK produce because of the relative strength of the euro. How much this cancels out any SR price inflation over the last several years, I don't know.