[BigBrother]

About three years ago I deep-dove into the rabbit hole that is stiff flat front dress shirts- marcella, pique, plain, detachable collars, studs, the works.

I didn't end up finding what I wanted (and lost ~$600 to a horrible custom job) and put it on the back burner.

Well, I've returned . My requirements have changed somewhat and I was wondering if you all could help me potentially find a vendor for what I'm after!

(Down below are also my pre-existing thoughts and experiences with a number of vendors; should save you some of the recs.)

Criteria:
1. The distant (~4") spacing between stud holes that only flat front dress shirts seem to have.
2. That gorgeous flat-as-a-board look.
3. Attached collar. Yes, I'm going attached! I tried the detachable route but it introduces *so* many complexities and complications that it's just not worth it.
4. Would love to find both wing and flat collars.
5. If wing collar, not too high. That would be great for white tie (but basically wrong if it's attached anyway) but doesn't really work well with more modern evening wear.
6. Marcella or plain- would love either/both.
7. If possible, machine washable. I only mention this because many places seem to boast/take pride in the fact that they've developed a non-starch requiring version and it sounds cool. However, on further reflection, this isn't a huge requirement for me (dry cleaning would be fine) as long as it doesn't *require* starching.

So, what have I explored/purchased in the past?...

Budd: very nice guys. But the only attached option they provide lacks some of the points above. On recent inspection, though, this one might, *might* work. Need to look into it further:

https://www.buddshirts.co.uk/classi...le-cuff-wing-collar-dress-shirt-in-white.html

New & Lingwood: once again, I thought they failed on some of the points, but this shirt might qualify:

https://us.newandlingwood.com/mens-...te-ritz-wing-collar-classic-fit-evening-shirt

Ede and Ravenscroft: none of the dress shirts qualify.

Darcy Clothing: rather costume-quality, and their attached collars are too high.

Eton: this just popped up for me. I had looked at them in the past but didn't find what I needed. Now they do seem to carry what I'm after (including a flat front). Will inspect further.

There likely were others but these are the most salient ones to me. If I remember them I'll add them here (or as a reply if it doesn't allow updating.)

I have to say, typing this all out and looking up links again, I have more options than I remembered- since I've eased up a bit on my criteria, some of the vendors above likely actually do have what I'm after! Regardless, would love to get your recs if you know more. (For example, I'd love to find options that won't set me back ~$300 , but I do realize this might be what I have to pay.)

Thanks so much all!!!!!

 

[Vecchio Vespa]

About three years ago I deep-dove into the rabbit hole that is stiff flat front dress shirts- marcella, pique, plain, detachable collars, studs, the works.

I didn't end up finding what I wanted (and lost ~$600 to a horrible custom job) and put it on the back burner.

Well, I've returned . My requirements have changed somewhat and I was wondering if you all could help me potentially find a vendor for what I'm after!

(Down below are also my pre-existing thoughts and experiences with a number of vendors; should save you some of the recs.)

Criteria:
1. The distant (~4") spacing between stud holes that only flat front dress shirts seem to have.
2. That gorgeous flat-as-a-board look.
3. Attached collar. Yes, I'm going attached! I tried the detachable route but it introduces *so* many complexities and complications that it's just not worth it.
4. Would love to find both wing and flat collars.
5. If wing collar, not too high. That would be great for white tie (but basically wrong if it's attached anyway) but doesn't really work well with more modern evening wear.
6. Marcella or plain- would love either/both.
7. If possible, machine washable. I only mention this because many places seem to boast/take pride in the fact that they've developed a non-starch requiring version and it sounds cool. However, on further reflection, this isn't a huge requirement for me (dry cleaning would be fine) as long as it doesn't *require* starching.

So, what have I explored/purchased in the past?...

Budd: very nice guys. But the only attached option they provide lacks some of the points above. On recent inspection, though, this one might, *might* work. Need to look into it further:

https://www.buddshirts.co.uk/classi...le-cuff-wing-collar-dress-shirt-in-white.html

New & Lingwood: once again, I thought they failed on some of the points, but this shirt might qualify:

https://us.newandlingwood.com/mens-...te-ritz-wing-collar-classic-fit-evening-shirt

Ede and Ravenscroft: none of the dress shirts qualify.

Darcy Clothing: rather costume-quality, and their attached collars are too high.

Eton: this just popped up for me. I had looked at them in the past but didn't find what I needed. Now they do seem to carry what I'm after (including a flat front). Will inspect further.

There likely were others but these are the most salient ones to me. If I remember them I'll add them here (or as a reply if it doesn't allow updating.)

I have to say, typing this all out and looking up links again, I have more options than I remembered- since I've eased up a bit on my criteria, some of the vendors above likely actually do have what I'm after! Regardless, would love to get your recs if you know more. (For example, I'd love to find options that won't set me back ~$300 , but I do realize this might be what I have to pay.)

Thanks so much all!!!!!

Even though they are flat, I assume from the linked photos that pleats are not acceptable. Correct?

 

[BigBrother]

Even though they are flat, I assume from the linked photos that pleats are not acceptable. Correct?

Correct. I'm going for the stiff-as-a-board, completely flat look popular throughout the 19th and first half of the 20th centuries (see Downton Abbey for an easy example.)

 

[L. B. Goold]

Correct. I'm going for the stiff-as-a-board, completely flat look popular throughout the 19th and first half of the 20th centuries (see Downton Abbey for an easy example.)

That "look" requires starch.

 

[drpeter]

I am unsure how comfortable a heavily starched shirt might be, especially if you have to wear it for a while. When I was a lad, many people wore starched clothes, and in the military, during national service, one's uniform had to be heavily starched with razor sharp creases ironed into the shirt and trousers. In a tropical climate (though more subtropical in climate, LA does get hot), the heat makes the starched clothes especially resistant to air circulation because the more porous weave of light cotton clothing that could permit air circulation is shut off by the starch.

An extreme of stiffness in shirts (at least in one part of them) was achieved by using detachable celluloid collars. In the fifties, my Dad still had some of these shirts. The collars were attached to the shirts with studs, and were removed before the shirts were picked up by the dhobbie (the laundryman) -- who returned them starched, of course.

 

[Vecchio Vespa]

I am unsure how comfortable a heavily starched shirt might be, especially if you have to wear it for a while. When I was a lad, many people wore starched clothes, and in the military, during national service, one's uniform had to be heavily starched with razor sharp creases ironed into the shirt and trousers. In a tropical climate (though more subtropical in climate, LA does get hot), the heat makes the starched clothes especially resistant to air circulation because the more porous weave of light cotton clothing that could permit air circulation is shut off by the starch.

An extreme of stiffness in shirts (at least in one part of them) was achieved by using detachable celluloid collars. In the fifties, my Dad still had some of these shirts. The collars were attached to the shirts with studs, and were removed before the shirts were picked up by the dhobbie (the laundryman) -- who returned them starched, of course.

True indeed, but the OP is quite focused on achieving a very specific period look, and that look does not align with comfort. He sought advice, for example, on black patent shoes for dancing and scoffed at the notion of jazz shoes, for they would not conform to the requisite "period correct" look. He cited Downton Abbey for the look.

 

[drpeter]

Yes, I understand the OP's desire for a period-accurate look. In fact, I was one of several people who commented on the patent leather shoes, and suggested that an alternative might be black cap-toe oxfords, well-polished to a nice shine. I think we were trying to find a point somewhere between the two extremes of casual comfort and full-fig formality.

Now, I don't know if getting a stiff flat front on a shirt without starch is possible, but perhaps there are ways in which just the segment of the shirt in front can be heavily starched, and the rest, perhaps, lightly so -- those among us who don black/white tie on a regular basis might know about this.

In general, even formal evening clothes were much stiffer overall, metaphorically speaking, about a century or so ago. The tailcoat became the shortened dinner jacket, after the Duke of Windsor famously asked his tailor, Frederick Scholte, to chop off the tails! Or so the story goes. Eventually people began to wear soft-front shirts as well, and even the cummerbund has been disposed of in some quarters. As many have remarked, the evolution of men's clothes have been distinctly in the direction of greater comfort, whether formal dress or casual wear.

 

[Vecchio Vespa]

Yes, I understand the OP's desire for a period-accurate look. In fact, I was one of several people who commented on the patent leather shoes, and suggested that an alternative might be black cap-toe oxfords, well-polished to a nice shine. I think we were trying to find a point somewhere between the two extremes of casual comfort and full-fig formality.

Now, I don't know if getting a stiff flat front on a shirt without starch is possible, but perhaps there are ways in which just the segment of the shirt in front can be heavily starched, and the rest, perhaps, lightly so -- those among us who don black/white tie on a regular basis might know about this.

In general, even formal evening clothes were much stiffer overall, metaphorically speaking, about a century or so ago. The tailcoat became the shortened dinner jacket, after the Duke of Windsor fanously asked his tailor, Frederick Scholte, to chop off the tails! Or so the story goes. Eventually people began to wear soft-front shirts as well, and even the cummerbund has been disposed of in some quarters. As many have remarked, the evolution of men's clothes have been distinctly in the direction of greater comfort, whether formal dress or casual wear.

Within my lifetime black tie was regarded in some circles as informal.

 

[BigBrother]

Just to chime in on this (and thank you so much all for the opinions and responses!)...

It is in fact a balancing act between comfort and style (and when is it not? ) For certain things I’m willing to sacrifice the former for the latter. Black patent shoes are in fact one example of this (I have danced in much worse, let me tell you!)

I have been fascinated by these types of shirts since high school. I expect only the bibs will really be very stiff and that is fine for me. I’m not exactly doing crunches in my dance routines . To be honest I only plan to have some local dry cleaner starch it, this won’t pass inspection at Buckingham Palace.

A few years ago I tried the detachable collar route and it did, in fact, cross over into too little comfort for the style; it was simply too much for what I was after (the myriad studs were what did it.)

Also, re: starch, it’s actually not the extremely hard attribute that drew me to these, though it is related. It was more the ultra-clean lines produced by the big blank of flat fabric and the very large spacing between stud holes. That’s really what I love about this look (well, that and Marcella ). So even if I won’t be getting armor chest plate-level stiffness, the design itself is what I’m after!

 

[BigBrother]

Oh and I forgot to mention, as heretical as it might be to some on here, I’m planning to use these in part for mixed ensemble outfits of more modern tuxedos with white tie or traditional black tie under-components (though now that I type that out, I suppose it’s not that uncommon based on ads I see.)

I do also plan to wear these with somewhat more traditional tuxedos (black tie with white shawl jacket), but, for example, I never see myself actually using the white tie pieces (tie, waistcoat, etc.) with the full tails. So consider this creative white tie?

This is the reason I’ve avoided high collars, attached or detachable- they just look silly with anything but the original attire!

 

[Vecchio Vespa]

Oh and I forgot to mention, as heretical as it might be to some on here, I'm planning to use these in part for mixed ensemble outfits of more modern tuxedos with white tie or traditional black tie under-components (though now that I type that out, I suppose it's not that uncommon based on ads I see.)

I do also plan to wear these with somewhat more traditional tuxedos (black tie with white shawl jacket), but, for example, I never see myself actually using the white tie pieces (tie, waistcoat, etc.) with the full tails. So consider this creative white tie?

This is the reason I've avoided high collars, attached or detachable- they just look silly with anything but the original attire!

Mixing formal (white tie, pique shirt, tails, and such) with black tie (dinner jacket, pleated shirt (usually), cummerbund or vest, and black bow tie) is going to seem like anathema to many (not all) here on the Trad board. This is a group that holds strong opinions as to whether a notch lapel is acceptable on a dinner jacket! We look forward to photos of your combinations as you push the envelope!

 

[BigBrother]

Well, hardly what I’d call a high resolution photo, but here I am from a few years back with one of these looks...

 

[drpeter]

Mixing formal (white tie, pique shirt, tails, and such) with black tie (dinner jacket, pleated shirt (usually), cummerbund or vest, and black bow tie) is going to seem like anathema to many (not all) here on the Trad board. This is a group that holds strong opinions as to whether a notch lapel is acceptable on a dinner jacket! We look forward to photos of your combinations as you push the envelope!

I'll add the rule about never wearing French cuffs on shirts for white tie, but only stiff single cuffs with cuff links.

 

[Vecchio Vespa]

I was on the Mercer website and noted they will make special order shirts. Although they will be pricey, they may achieve your objective of not being out $300. Also, their range of materials is wide. If you are getting a plain front shirt that will be heavily starched, you may find that a fabric like pinpoint, being more hefty than broadcloth, will take and hold starch better while retaining an highly finished look. They will make a front with no placket.

 

[BigBrother]

Thanks, I’ll take a look at that in a second! Meanwhile, something occurred to me to ask on here last night as I browsed the Internet for marcella evening/dress shirts (of which, by the way, there were many more than I anticipated!):

One of the hallmarks of this look that I’m after, as mentioned above, is the very wide spacing between stud holes. This has actually been the largest stymieing point for me as I search for these. As said I don’t really need the perfect traditional detachable collar system (those do usually come with the wide-spaced stud holes,) and am happy to go with attached collar. BUT, that’s when I usually lose the wide stud spacing. So could you possibly recommend options/purveyors who could give me attached collar shirts with that ~4” stud spacing? New & Lingwood and Darcy are so far the only ones I’ve found. N&L I’ll probably get (but that’s only in a wing), and Darcy is a wing and way too high. Perhaps Mercer will do it.

Lots of pretty (at least on the websites) marcells shirts out there... not so much with the spacing!

Also note flat is desired as well. Flat and marcella.

Thanks!!

UPDATE- just returned from Mercer. I wouldn’t trust them with this. It’s not that they seem questionable, their purview just seems quite different than what I’m after and I wouldn’t trust them to be able to pull it off well.

 

[L. B. Goold]

Buy an old akco shirt and take it to a tailor to copy.