Collar roll basically pertains to the bell effect of the classic (Brooks 3-3/8") button-down. When worn properly and when the collar buttons are situated correctly there will be a definite curve in the collar. On shirts that fit poorly (such as most members of Congress the roll can actually be reversed and look very sloppy). Some button-downs (think Polo) a combination of shorter points and improper button location results in the collar having no arch or bell effect at all. This also seems to be the case with most of the new noniron button-downs even when the collar fits and the buttons are located correctly. I don't have picture editing capability but if anyone wants to PM me I can fax you some examples. I'm sure other members of AAAC will have numerous examples of good, bad and no roll.

 

For a much larger version, click to https://www.ohiou.edu/news/pix/BUCKLEY.JPG

 

Crazyquik's example of William F. Buckley is exactly the "negative" roll I spoke of-this results from either/both the collar being too tight and/or the buttons being placed improperly, and is the antithesis of the studied elegance that a properly fitted and buttoned button-down will provide.

 

The Brooks Brothers history, Generations of Style, explains that shirts with button-down collars, introduced around 1900, became enormously popular during the 1920s. A new generation wanted to set itself apart from the late Victorians and Edwardians who wore stiff, stand-up, detachable shirt collars. The button-down collar was soft, relaxed, even slouchy. The button-down collar's roll moved and shifted as the wearer moved. This makes sense, because supposedly the style originated on shirts worn by polo players (although there is a school of thought disputing that story). Anyway, the movement fit right in with flapper zeitgeist. Think of bobbed hair and dresses with long strings of beads, or the charleston compared to the waltz. Stiffness was out.

This brings us to why I don't like a lining in the collar of a button-down shirt. Anything tending to stiffen the shirt collar and make it look too perfect and immobile goes against the sporty spirit of the button-down. It's supposed to be a soft and slouchy collar, not a stiff and proper collar.

Edit: I should qualify this. Some shirting fabrics, such as broadcloths, are so thin that they do need a lining in a button-down collar. It's button-down oxford cloth shirts that I prefer with unlined collars.

 

here's a sketch from the Mercer website

https://www.mercerandsons.com/

IMHO there are two types of roll, and i've commented on this before. Buckley's roll above, and that shown on the mercer site is a liberty bell. BB shirts sometimes also do a roll that is an exact opposite. Goes narrow on the top, then curves out on the bottom.

Both are acceptable, though i prefer a liberty bell.

Mrks

 

...I figure that I should be obsessing over it too, but I can't figure out exactly what it is...

Think for yourself, and dress for yourself. Learn about classic American clothing on this forum, then do what makes the most sense to you, or works best for you. You should NOT be doing what everone does here, because they're doing what's best for themselves (maybe), not for you. Yeah, it's a bit tricky for someone new, but pay attention and above all THINK.

As for the right collar roll, I've run across dozens of photos of button-down shirts and they all roll differently on different people. Unless one goes bespoke with a sympathetic and patient shirtmaker, then on RTW shirts the damn collars are going to do whatever they feel like.

DD

 

Think for yourself, and dress for yourself. Learn about classic American clothing on this forum, then do what makes the most sense to you, or works best for you.

As for the right collar roll, I've run across dozens of photos of button-down shirts and they all roll differently on different people. Unless one goes bespoke with a sympathetic and patient shirtmaker, then on RTW shirts the damn collars are going to do whatever they feel like.

DD

Agreed. Yes, do think for yourself, but I like to hear and encourage the obsessing. I enjoy hearing the (sometimes) strong opinions of the forum members. I really like it when I can think to myself, "There goes ____ again!--I love that guy--wouldn't dress like him, but I'm glad he's out there."

 

Agreed. Yes, do think for yourself, but I like to hear and encourage the obsessing. I enjoy hearing the (sometimes) strong opinions of the forum members. I really like it when I can think to myself, "There goes ____ again!--I love that guy--wouldn't dress like him, but I'm glad he's out there."

Exactly. Dressing trad for the sake of dressing trad seems, to me, to be little more than just putting on a uniform. If a particular article or style of clothing isn't going to work for you, don't wear it. Maybe there are some people who would pronounce anathema on anyone suggesting darts or pleats, but wear what you need to wear. If you need, for example, some shoulder padding to offset your melon head, then by all means buy a jacket with some padding in it.

Anyway...

 

For some good examples of collar roll, check out the "What are you wearing" thread.

 

Example of a Brooks Brothers collar roll

Here is an example of a BB collar roll on an OCBD I'm wearing today. The color and lighting isn't very good, but it does show the roll.

https://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bbshirtta4.jpg

 

The Bill Gates Roll

 

The Bill Gates Roll

 

The Bill Gates Roll

+1

 

5k+ posts and he's still got it.

Well played.

 

COLLAR roll, not DOLLAR roll.

 

When I first read the OP I thought the question was about the roll behind the collar of an ill fitting suit or sport coat.

 

Since this thread refuses to die I'll throw in my 2 cents worth.

I just watched Marley and Me with my wife. I was struck by the editor of the Miami newspaper. In every scene but one he was wearing a solid button down, either white or blue (iirc). I suspect they were Brooks, and the collar was outstanding (though the tie was never done up properly). The only exception was when he was once wearing a white point collar.

 

John Bolton put on a clinic yesterday on fox news. Please disregard the politics, I'm certainly not going to get into what I think about this guy personally.

https://video.foxnews.com/v/2589122894001/wh-claims-core-of-al-qaeda-has-been-greatly-diminished/

 

Dressing trad for the sake of dressing trad seems, to me, to be little more than just putting on a uniform. If a particular article or style of clothing isn't going to work for you, don't wear it.

Exactly. I respect the tradition involved with this clothing, but I just think a "proper" collar roll appears odd.

 

mayostard: I don't know. The collar is doing what someone mentioned earlier (as in six years ago, jeez you newbies and your thread revives ), only rolling towards the bottom. His shirt is either stiffy starched, the collar fused, or both. The use of anything besides a four-in-hand with a button-down collar always struck me as wrong, too.

universitystripe: Without at least a hint of roll, you may as well have bought a point collar and attached decorative buttons to it.

 

Member OBCD actually did a pictorial on his blog regarding collar rolls which is pretty illustrative: https://oxfordclothbuttondown.com/2013/07/collar-roll/

As for John Bolton, I saw the report live and actually called my wife in to point out his seersucker jacket. Very well played. Side note: in the old Malloy book "Dress for Success" he advised newscasters not to wear thin stripes as they would blend and distort on television. Today's HD signal obviates that admonition as Bolton's stripes looked great.

 

Four Liberty Bell collar rolls: 1) BB Broadcloth w/ silk emblematic, 2) J Press Chambray with Silk Grenadine Fina 3) JPress OCBD with Wool paisley foulard 4) BB Pinpoint with critter tie (Ladybugs) - all tied with four-in-hand knot

 

Four Liberty Bell collar rolls: 1) BB Broadcloth w/ silk emblematic, 2) J Press Chambray with Silk Grenadine Fina 3) JPress OCBD with Wool paisley foulard 4) BB Pinpoint with critter tie (Ladybugs) - all tied with four-in-hand knot

These shots make me long for you to post in the WAYWT thread again, Billax!

 

^^+1. I enthusiastically agree with Spin Evans!
In just a single post and four photographs Billax has gifted us with pictorial tutorials on proper tie knots, exceptional collar roll(s), positive color coordination and complimentary pattern matching. Anyone (except perhaps myself) can take and post a picture, but only a true master can elicit the thousand words of wisdom, inherent in said pictures! Thank-you, Billax!

 

universitystripe: Without at least a hint of roll, you may as well have bought a point collar and attached decorative buttons to it.

Yes, I agree with that. Polo's ocbds give me just enough without being too dramatic. It's just a personal preference. Admittedly, a larger roll would be better for ties.