[freshfood]

Hi, this is my first post. I'm getting my first dinner jacket done, and needless to say, I've got some questions about the whole thing. I'm hoping that some of you more sartorially inclined folks might answer them.. There will be quite a number of questions, so even if a few are answered by some, that would still be helpful. Below are some of the details of each item and the questions I have pertaining to them.

Jacket

-Single-breasted, peaked lapel with satin facings
-10 ounce black worsted wool (garbadine). I'm guessing 10 ounce is the closest I can get to a year-round suit; is garbadine a suitable material for a dinner jacket?
-Double-besomed hip pockets and a breast pocket (I'm not sure what kind of pocket it is--a welt pocket? It is of the standard variety). Should the hip pockets and breast pocket all be trimmed with the lapel's silk facings?
-No vents

Waistcoat

-Single-breasted
-Full back, wool body (same material as that of jacket), with shawl lapels in satin. My tailor recommended having the back of the waistcoat in silk to make the waistcoat less heavy. It seems fairly unorthodox?
-3 buttons. Should the buttons be covered in satin or are studs (and of what kind?)?
-Are there pockets on the waistcoat?
-Should the waistcoat be V-shaped or U-shaped?
-Is a trouser tab required?

Shirt- I'm getting both a wing collar and a turndown collar

Turndown Collar
-French Cuffs
-Is there a most appropriate collar out of the selection of the spread, semi-spread and the straight point variety? Or does the collar one chooses only depend on the shape of one's face?
-If the bosom is in marcella, should the collar and French cuffs be in marcella also? What if the front is pleated?
-Is a trouser tab required?
-3 studs on the visible bosom and buttons for the rest of its length down, which would be covered by the waistcoat. Is this normal?

Wing Collar
-Single cuff
-What kind of material on the front (bib)? Marcella or plain? Definitely no pleats.

Trousers

-My tailor advised against getting the trousers being fitted for suspenders/braces (such that it hangs from the shoulders and not the waist) because he said that would create a looser silhouette which would look awkward when worn with a jacket with no vents. The trousers would thus be worn with neither suspenders nor a belt. This seems rather dubious..
-No pleats
-No cuffs
-Satin trimmings

 

[larsrindsig]

Single-breasted, peaked lapel with satin facings

Yes.

Should the hip pockets and breast pocket all be trimmed with the lapel's silk facings?

No.

No vents

Correct.

My tailor recommended having the back of the waistcoat in silk to make the waistcoat less heavy. It seems fairly unorthodox?

Not at all unorthodox. Full-backed is heavier and warmer.

Should the buttons be covered in satin or are studs (and of what kind?)?

I'd actually go with covered in the wool fabric.

Are there pockets on the waistcoat?

If you want them, but yeah.

Should the waistcoat be V-shaped or U-shaped?

U-shaped is most traditional.

Is a trouser tab required?

Not required but highly recommended.

I'm getting both a wing collar and a turndown collar

That makes a lot of sense.

-Is there a most appropriate collar out of the selection of the spread, semi-spread and the straight point variety? Or does the collar one chooses only depend on the shape of one's face?

I think a wide-spread collar looks out of place with a bow.

-If the bosom is in marcella, should the collar and French cuffs be in marcella also? What if the front is pleated?

Yes. If the front is pleated the fabric should just be plain (like a business shirt).

-Is a trouser tab required?

Not required but highly recommended.

-3 studs on the visible bosom and buttons for the rest of its length down, which would be covered by the waistcoat. Is this normal?

Yup.

-Single cuff

Correct.

-What kind of material on the front (bib)? Marcella or plain? Definitely no pleats.

Marcella.

-My tailor advised against getting the trousers being fitted for suspenders/braces (such that it hangs from the shoulders and not the waist) because he said that would create a looser silhouette which would look awkward when worn with a jacket with no vents. The trousers would thus be worn with neither suspenders nor a belt. This seems rather dubious..

If your suit is cut quite slim hi might be right.

-No pleats

Correct.

-No cuffs

Correct.

-Satin trimmings

Yes, single stripe along the trouser seam.

 

[Simon Myerson]

Jacket - excellent choices, although I prefer grossgrain silk myself. Check it out and see which you like better. The breast pocket is a standard welt. I would not have gaberdine - it goes out of shape too easily. Barathea is traditional but a standard worsted (particularly a super given that you don't wear black tie that often) would be fine.

Waistcoat - you can mix the peaked lapel of the jacket and a shawl lapel but I think consistency is better. Silk backing is not unusual with a DJ. 4 buttons close together is traditional but 3 is also fine. There should be 2 pockets. If shawl lapel then I suggest U shaped but it makes the shirt more difficult. A trouser tab helps secure everything in place.

Turndown collar shirt - sounds good. Choice of marcella or pleats is up to you - whichever you like better. If marcella then the cuffs are normally marcella too. If pleats, the cuffs are plain. I think a semi-spread is best with a bow tie. Certainly not a straight collar where the points will look odd. The 3 studs and rest covered is normal. The trouser tab helps as above.

Wing collar shirt - on NO account should the wing collar be attatched. The shirt cannot then be laundered properly, will look puny and soggy and will not last. Buy a collarless shirt and a spoearate wing collar. The higher the collar the better the look (within limits obviously) and the more uncomfortable it is. 1 1/2 inches is minimum to look smart. 2 inches is the highest most can stand. If you are going to starch it solid go for a plain front - otherwise marcella. Single links are correct.

Trousers - I hate braces and find them restricting, but most would wear them. There is no problem with a self top trouser, providing it contains a mechanism (usually buttons on elastic or daks tops) to take in and expand the waist a litlle. Belts are a big no-no with black tie. The trimming should match the lapel of the jacket. No cuffs certainly. I think black tie trousers (in which you spend a lot of time sitting and a lot of time dancing) benefit from a single pleat.

Good luck.

 

[larsrindsig]

Wing collar shirt - on NO account should the wing collar be attatched.

Quite, second that.

 

[Orsini]

I suggesat you run all this past https://www.blacktieguide.com/index.html

-No vents

Good choice!

Waistcoat…My tailor recommended having the back of the waistcoat in silk…

Silk is too hot -- bemberg is more typical. Note: Like material ternds to make the jacket ride up.

-3 buttons….

Assunming SB, no -- one button.

-Is a trouser tab required?

Tabs not needed. You will use braces.

-French Cuffs

Don't remenber due to brain damage from the '60's. See Back Tie Guide

-Is there a most appropriate collar out of the selection of the spread, semi-spread and the straight point variety? Or does the collar one chooses only depend on the shape of one's face?

You don't get that many choices. It is turndown or wing for black tie. The DOW died for our sins so Orsini sez turndown.

-Is a trouser tab required?

No. Use braces.

-My tailor advised against getting the trousers being fitted for suspenders/braces…

Your tailor is obvioiusly a Soviet mole. Cook him for dinner over a slow fire until he is nice and tender and get another tailor -- save me a slice.

-No cuffs

Thay is correct!!!!!!

P.S. --- Anything Sator says is OK with me.

 

[larsrindsig]

Assunming SB, no -- one button.

Not on the waistcoat, man!

The DOW died for our sins so Orsini sez turndown.

Lols :icon_smile_big:

 

[freshfood]

Thanks for all the feedback! I've just read through the guide: www.blacktieguide.com.

U-shaped is most traditional.

Hm, so a waistcoat like this (disregarding the bottom which looks rather unusual)

is more traditional than this?

(Both pictures taken from the guide)

 

[freshfood]

Ok. I don't know why I can't seem to make the previous post. Here is a truncated version.

The guide says:

• Spread collars are more formal than semi-spread collars for black tie; point collars are not appropriate
• Suspenders are always worn, no exceptions
• Barathea is not suitable as a material says the British

Lastly--and not from the guide--I haven't seen peaked lapels on a waistcoat before.. do they exist?

I apologize if I appear erisitc; I can assure you I'm not trying to be so--just trying to figure out what's "right" (if such a term applies here).

 

[brendon]

i cant comment on jacket or waist coat as im not knowledgeable on them but i would go with braces as i think they add to the outfit. and yes i would gowith a detachable collar as i think they look 10x better and they look excellent when you first wear one it can take getting used to.

 

[Bird's One View]

evening vests

Either the U front or V front low vest is entirely acceptable. Today the V front is easier to find RTW.

I am not sure what is meant that the U front is "more traditional". Judging by photos and illustrations I've seen, it was more often worn a hundred years ago than it is today; but I believe the V front was also acceptable back then.

The thing to avoid is a vest cut like the one from a three piece lounge suit (SB with five or six buttons).

 

[Miket61]

A trouser tab helps secure everything in place.
quote]

I have a cummerbund with a trouser tab, and I assume that my HSM tuxedo (single-breasted, one-button, peaked satin lapels) wasn't intended to work with it because I don't seem to have a button on the trousers that corresponds. Am I doing something wrong?

As far as adding to the conversation...

I don't care for a spread collar with a bow tie, no matter what Tom Ford does.

Suspenders are not worn if the pants have little buckles on the sides to take in the waist once they're on.

Normally there are four shirt studs in a set. My T&A pleated point-collar shirt has buttons hidden under the placket so that whatever buttons are hidden by the cummerbund or waistcoat need not be replaced with bulky jewelry.

And I strongly prefer the u-shaped waistcoat. Sean Combs (pictured) tends to individualize his outfits by adding pre-war design elements.

 

[Jovan]

No points on the waistcoat is quite fine if you want that. It was more common back then than today, but obviously Sean Combs doesn't mind. (I wish his jacket had only a single button and no flaps, though.)

What's this about spread collars? A medium spread ("tennis" collar) is best from all I've read and seen.

I'm not sure what I missed here, but hip pockets with the jetting in silk are correct, no? A breast pocket in silk looks pretty bad and I wouldn't do it. Avoid pocket flaps.

I think satin silk looks quite boring. Why not faille or grosgrain? Both of them are quite traditional and don't look as oily-slick, plus have more depth and subtlety. If your tailor doesn't have either, I'd look somewhere else, especially if he's telling you to go sans braces! I'm not an expert on black tie, but those are definitely a red flag if I were a potential customer.

 

[Peak and Pine]

Hi, this is my first post. I'm getting my first dinner jacket done, and needless to say, I've got some questions about the whole thing. Etc., etc., yeah, yeah,yeah, blah, blah, blah, etc.

I've got a question of you: where are you going dressed like that and have you got an extra ticket?

(I've got a powder blue tux with a ruffled-front shirt that needs a good work out.)
​

 

[Orsini]

Not on the waistcoat, man!

Lols :icon_smile_big:

I must have though he meant the jacket.

 

[Sator]

Evening waistcoat were always quite varied and fancy in their design. The front can be V shaped or have a U shaped horse shoe front. Both are equally correct.

Concerning the cloth - a barathea would probably be the more classical weave for evening dress.

Brace trousers: are usually more comfortable because they are cut looser in the waist, and they don't droop. However, they can still be cut perfectly slim according to taste. Here is an example from Edward Minister, perhaps the most respected of all late 19th century tailors:

As you can see they are extremely slim by modern standards. Yet they are brace trousers.

So much for brace trousers having a "looser silhouette"!

 

[Sator]

Hm, so a waistcoat like this (disregarding the bottom which looks rather unusual)

is more traditional than this?

Neither is more traditional! The Black Tie Guide is good but still "in evolution".

Waistcoats need not have a horse shoe shaped front if they have shawl collars either. In this example, one waistcoat has shawl collars without a full horseshoe shaped front, and another double points at the bottom:

The waistcoat was always a point where a man could exhibit a bit of individuality.

 

[Jovan]

What a cute couple those two make.

 

[Orsini]

The OP might want to consider this:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?p=804484#post804484

 

[larsrindsig]

Neither is more traditional!

Point taken.

 

[Concordia]

Hi, this is my first post. I'm getting my first dinner jacket done, and needless to say, I've got some questions about the whole thing. I'm hoping that some of you more sartorially inclined folks might answer them.. There will be quite a number of questions, so even if a few are answered by some, that would still be helpful. Below are some of the details of each item and the questions I have pertaining to them.

Jacket

-Single-breasted, peaked lapel with satin facings
-10 ounce black worsted wool (garbadine). I'm guessing 10 ounce is the closest I can get to a year-round suit; is garbadine a suitable material for a dinner jacket?
-Double-besomed hip pockets and a breast pocket (I'm not sure what kind of pocket it is--a welt pocket? It is of the standard variety). Should the hip pockets and breast pocket all be trimmed with the lapel's silk facings?
-No vents

Waistcoat

-Single-breasted
-Full back, wool body (same material as that of jacket), with shawl lapels in satin. My tailor recommended having the back of the waistcoat in silk to make the waistcoat less heavy. It seems fairly unorthodox?
-3 buttons. Should the buttons be covered in satin or are studs (and of what kind?)?
-Are there pockets on the waistcoat?
-Should the waistcoat be V-shaped or U-shaped?
-Is a trouser tab required?

Shirt- I'm getting both a wing collar and a turndown collar

Turndown Collar
-French Cuffs
-Is there a most appropriate collar out of the selection of the spread, semi-spread and the straight point variety? Or does the collar one chooses only depend on the shape of one's face?
-If the bosom is in marcella, should the collar and French cuffs be in marcella also? What if the front is pleated?
-Is a trouser tab required?
-3 studs on the visible bosom and buttons for the rest of its length down, which would be covered by the waistcoat. Is this normal?

Wing Collar
-Single cuff
-What kind of material on the front (bib)? Marcella or plain? Definitely no pleats.

Trousers

-My tailor advised against getting the trousers being fitted for suspenders/braces (such that it hangs from the shoulders and not the waist) because he said that would create a looser silhouette which would look awkward when worn with a jacket with no vents. The trousers would thus be worn with neither suspenders nor a belt. This seems rather dubious..
-No pleats
-No cuffs
-Satin trimmings

You'd need a good reason to get gabardine, and I'm not hearing one. Barathea is more traditional, or perhaps get a mohair blend for hot, steamy weather.

Braces should be required. Makes the trousers much more comfy and elegant.

Any sort of turn-down collar should be OK, apart from a club collar or button-down, I mean. Semi-spread (like the standard Hilditch & Key) is classic, but points can be a little closer or further apart without killing anyone.

Grosgrain trim is nicer than satin, IMO. Don't bother using it on the pocket piping, etc. Can look a little cheesy.