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Pre-Prada Church's

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#21 ·
Leather man said:
However the 73 last, as far as I know, is only obtainable through Herrings and Church's Factory shop.
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I've seen them at other Church stockists too (I picked up a pair of Balmorals at Edwards of Manchester a couple of weeks ago) - not sure if they are just procuring "unwanted" stock though, and aren't able to order for specific requests.

My advice is to forget the 73 last range shoes - you'll be disappointed I think and stick to the 173 last full price shoes if you can afford them.
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I think that's a little unfair to the last 73s - they are still very nice shoes, even if they're not as nice as the more expensive ranges...certainly in comparing £130 shoes against the £190 I paid for mine, the difference bought by that extra £60 was fairly dramatic in terms of the quality of the leather, construction and the overall elegance of the shoe.
This difference was much greater than the difference between the last 73s and the full-priced Church's (not sure on the models I was looking at so not sure which last they were - in the £300+ bracket though).

So, I guess whether you'll be disappointed comes down to your expectation - if you're looking at full-price Church's and think you could save a few quid by buying last 73, then yes, you might be disappointed. If you're looking at spending the extra to get a Last 73 instead of a cheaper shoe, chances are you won't be disappointed. :icon_smile:
 
#22 ·
Leather man said:
By corrected grain do you mean their Polished Binder leather? If you do it might help to know that pre-Prada Church's also used this extensively for decades - under the name "Bookbinder leather". The name change was nothing to do with Prada but due to a change of supplier after problems were encountered with Bookbinder - flaking etc.

Linen lining- I would just point out that Church's used part linen linings for many years before the Prada take over. In fact they use them less now than in the old days. Not all Cordwainers think linen linings are inferior though - other threads reveal a debate about this.

I think even in the sales Edward Green shoes cost more than £430 - at least to us Brits who pay VAT. However its a nice thought:icon_smile:
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I'm not sure what Polished Binder of "Bookbinder" leather is, but corrected grain leather is a top grain or full grain (as it is sometimes called) leather. The difference between the two is that corrected has had some of it's surface buffed or sanded to remove any imperfections in the hide, such as insect bites or scars. I knew that Church's have used linen linings for many years and that is one of the qualities of their shoes that I don't like, but have seen that many of their custom grade shoes today are using full leather linings than in the past. I was making a case that Church's shoes are a bit overpriced if they feature a linen lining and corrected grain leather.

Also, I guess £430 is a bit cheap for Edward Green shoes, but if you can buy at their factory shop and don't have to pay the VAT you could probably find a deal:icon_smile:.
 
#23 ·
thefancyman said:
I'm not sure what Polished Binder of "Bookbinder" leather is, but corrected grain leather is a top grain or full grain (as it is sometimes called) leather. The difference between the two is that corrected has had some of it's surface buffed or sanded to remove any imperfections in the hide, such as insect bites or scars.
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Polished binder/book binder is corrected grain, corrected grain cannot be called top grain.Technically speaking is it top grain leather but once the grains have been altered with, corrected grain can no longer be called top grain. There was could be a scenario where leather that is normally corrected is not, only then can it be called top grain.

The point from Church's and C&J is that although they use corrected grain, they still use good quality leather. Not to the level of EG and JL; however, superior then those found in other shoes.
 
#26 · (Edited)
David Reeves said:
I have always thought Churchs overated. Maybe they were good in the 80s. I really don't like the wide last. Some arrogant old Git at Churches laughed at me when I said I wanted an E width said know one does them. I pointed accross the way and said Crockett and Edward Green do them, think I will go there.

Ugh.... Had to expell that demon. Sorry for the venting.
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Dave, I was that "old git" hahahahahahahah

Have you seen my range of shoes? They're made in St James, Northampton. They are designed by me and only make 12 pairs of each design.

Retail costs are from £229.95

PS - Follow my blog - https://clementsandchurch.blogspot.com/
 
#28 ·
Church's Redux

Interesting thread. I offer the following observations/tidbits having bought and worn Church's 73 last shoes for 30 years, pre and post Prada.

- The Custom Grade line (handmade) never used linen linings, only calf, and to my knowledge were mostly bookbinder finish (if not suede or veal calf, and some veal were bookbinder). Linen was used for the 2d line shoe, e.g. Chetwynd. My experience with a couple of pairs of linen lined benchgrade shoes in a humid climate was not good. When the linen wears through, it is quite uncomfortable.
- In my view the best Church's shoes in the last couple of decades were the veal calfskins with names of wines, spirts ... burgundy, bordeaux, cognac. I have several pairs and cherish them. Personally, I found them equal to C&J Handgrade. (Church's formerly made cordovans as well but the vealskins were the cream of the crop.)
- Church made 73 last shoes post Prada because me friendly store notified my that Prada intended to stop making/marketing them. I special ordered several pairs, wish I had not. What I found is lower quality leather - thicker/stiffer/less supple - exhibited some cracking early ... and a difference in fit. In fact, 2 of the pairs fit so poorly and never accommodated to my feet that they were uncomfortable. THERE WAS NOTHING OBVIOUSLY DIFFERENT IN THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE SHOE (aside from the leather upper).
- During this period (years) when I purchased pre-Prada shoes and post-Prada shoes, my feet did not change. I continued to wear, and still greatly enjoy, my pre-Prada 73 last shoes (4 pair CG veal calfskin shoes, 1 CG suede, 1 bookbinder CG). These are great shoes (my wife says she intends to bury me in one pair which I seldom wear because I treasure them so much).
- Through all the problems of shoes not fitting right, I revisited the Houston Galleria store and they made efforts to stretch the shoes to alleviate discomfort. A very long time salesperson admitted to me that in his view, and the view of long time Church salespeople, the post-Prada shoes were not the same, in leather quality or trueness to the last. In the end I gave 4 pairs of almost new shoes to the Goodwill (took pictures of a couple pairs for value documentation after paying $600/pr plus tax a few years ago).
- Obviously, as a consumer I have no inside information on the shoe industry's diminished access to quality leather if that is an issue. However, I own Gravati shoes purchased in the last 18 months, and the leather quality appears to be high, comparable to pre-Prada shoes. The construction is another issue I'll leave for another day.

Regards,
A bereaved owner of 73 last Custom Grades in Houston (long live the old Church's)
 
#31 ·
If you want a proper pair of pre-Prada shoes, not the ones from Herring Shoes, which are apparently inferior to proper 73's then look on eBay.



This is in my size, but I already have it is black and enough dark brown shoes for the moment.
 
#32 ·
ToryBoy said:
If you want a proper pair of pre-Prada shoes, not the ones from Herring Shoes, which are apparently inferior to proper 73's then look on eBay.

This is in my size, but I already have it is black and enough dark brown shoes for the moment.
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That's "Grafton" with a prePrada US price 10 years ago of $475, Church's most expensive along with Shannon and Cotswold. All three double-soled bluchers.

$445: Lancaster & Piccadilly
$410: Cognac, Bordeaux, Champagne
$395: Chetwyn and most of the rest of the range with a few exceptions; Consul & Balmoral, @$375, Diplomat @$380, Buck Suede @$415, Monte Carlo (patent) @$305.
(from the price list)
 
#33 · (Edited)
bengal-stripe said:
Shoes with 'London, New York, Paris' on the 'sock' (insole lining) will be pre-Prada. If 'Milan' is added, they will be post-Prada.
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I got two pairs on the 73 last from Herring in 2012 which only have London Paris New York on the sock, suggesting they are pre-Prada, but would they really have been sitting around for over a decade or could they be from the 2003-06 Equinox period when Prada temporarily sold off its stake? Even that would mean up to nine years. That they could be pre-Prada is kind of a nice thought, I guess, but I don't recall Herring labelling them as "new old stock".
 
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