While no doubt bespoke from Savile Row is the gold standard for a well-tailored suit, the question arises which is the better fit and alternatively the better value: a MTM suit which is not bespoke or an OTR suit that fits well and then is subequently tailored to your specifications by your tailor? MTM usually cost 20-25% more than OTR and thus is OTR with subsequent tailoring a better value or can the fit by this method never achieve MTM status. Your thoughts and comments please which I greatly enjoy. drrobert
If not bespoke,MTM or OTR with subsequent tailoring
drrobert
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I have bespoke (SR), MTM (Zegna, Brioni, and Belvest) and OTR (Kiton, Brioni, Belvest, and other brands). In my experience, it is very hard to beat OTR that fits well. MTM is great if you really are not "regular" in some fashion or if you are willing to pay for a special fabric or other features, but in my experience the fit ends up being very similar to OTR. Bespoke is another world, but is expensive and slow, and it can take some time and money to get the fit right.
Easy for you to say if you're "most people". I swim in most 36 jackets (which are usually at least an inch too long anyway), my right shoulder is significantly lower than my left, my neck is longer (and smaller, at 13.5") enough than usual to cause problems, and I'm a 28 waist. MTM is the minimum for me just to look like I'm not borrowing somebody else's suit.
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Maybe so, but there's a huge difference between 'well enough' and a beautiful fit that's flattering.
I don't know whether you've ever had good quality MTM or bespoke Pickwick but most people say that once they've had it they can never go back to off-the-rack.
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"I don't know whether you've ever had good quality MTM or bespoke Pickwick but most people say that once they've had it they can never go back to off-the-rack."
I have been a MTM and bespoke customer for decades. After hearing how good the Neopolitan RTW offerings are, I spent the cost of a bespoke suit on one.
I've worn it three times in three years. I pull it out annually because it's hanging in the rotation and looks great. Then I put it on and am reminded that it just doesn't fit. Look for it on an eBay near you this Fall.
If you are going to spend that kind of money on a suit, it should have good cloth, quality construction and excellent fit. I only got two of the three.
I have been a MTM and bespoke customer for decades. After hearing how good the Neopolitan RTW offerings are, I spent the cost of a bespoke suit on one.
I've worn it three times in three years. I pull it out annually because it's hanging in the rotation and looks great. Then I put it on and am reminded that it just doesn't fit. Look for it on an eBay near you this Fall.
If you are going to spend that kind of money on a suit, it should have good cloth, quality construction and excellent fit. I only got two of the three.
It really does seem to be a question of whether this is an OTR that fits you well or not. MTM is great if you can't find well-fitting OTR. Different brands have different fits, e.g., Isaia vs. Belvest, even within a general category such as Italian. With the exception of Zegna, I've found that most brands and most stores offering MTM, even very high end ones don't do it that well.
First, in reply to the general thread, I agree that MTM seems to be worth the price, but perhaps only because in the only two instances in which I have any experience, the price difference does not seem to be huge. For example, I have a MTM Armani that is about 7 years old. At that time, the MTM was only about $400 more than general OTR.
The same is true for Zegna, which I'm considering. The difference is only $400 for a jacket. This seems well worth the price, as it allows for so many more options (linings, pockets, vents, no belt looks, no back pockets, etc., if considering both pants and jacket) as well as more fabric choices.
Regarding Notik's post above, Notik, what was your take on the Zegna MTM? I am relatively new to the list, but have been searching the archives, and Zegna seems to be treated pretty well.
Finally, does anyone have any experience with M Penner in Houston, who does a lot of MTM Zegna?
Zegna's MTM is a well-oiled machine (this is meant in a positive way). They are quick and dependable, and the quality is consistent. Sales people are also more likely to be familiar with their MTM program and as a result do a good job measuring you and noting the necessary changes to the chosen pattern. If you have any doubt about the person advising you while you are being measured, beware. Ideally, I would go to one of the Zegna stores, and if not then to a Neiman Marcus where they handle this well.
There is quite a bit of enthusiasm for MTM on this board, but it can also be very frustrating when they don't get it quite right. My experiences with Brioni and Belvest have not been great.
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Drrobert:
I would have to say that your answer depends on your circumstances. In my case, it's very difficult to find OTR (being a 6'8", 56 Extra Long with an 8-inch drop will do that for you). Since I needed suits that looked good but didn't have the cash for bespoke or to waste on OTR that 1) limited my wardrobe to navy, navy and navy and 2) fitted poorly on the rare occasions it was available, MTM was the way to go.
Since I made the switch a couple of years ago, I've built a very good wardrobe of MTM, in varying colors and patterns and with nice yet durable hands. They share a few of the details as bespoke, and when I reach the point that bespoke will not give me sticker shock, I'll move on to that.
So I would say MTM is good whenever bespoke and OTR plus tailoring aren't practical to your situation. If you can find a good variety of OTR and have a dynamite tailor, then go for it. Otherwise, either bespoke or MTM would be suitable -- again, as long as you have good materials to choose from and a skilled tailor.
Cheers!
I've never tried MTM, and probably never will.
The few places where I've bought RTW suits suggested my fit in off the rack is to the point where MTM would offer no significant improvements. I pretty much fit a 38R perfectly, but with an 8-inch drop. The clothing establishments from whom I've bought RTW suits were all very accommodating in switching the 32-inch trouser for one that is 30 inches.
I have no doubt a perfectly tailored bespoke suit would be an infinitely superior fit, not to mention more flattering. I've had a few custom tailored suits made. While the fit is almost perfect, whatever differences may exist between my custom tailored suits and altered (by the same tailor who has made some suits for me) RTWs one are only noticeable by me, and not anyone else who sees the suits on me. Perhaps, I just haven't run into anyone with eyes as keen as those on this forum when it comes visually distinguishing the "perfect" fit.
I'm going with the basic assumption that RTW sizes will fit "most" people. The underlying aspiration for an RTW garment is to…er…fit as wide a range of people as possible, right?
Naturally, those who fall out of this range will be better off with MTM. In my view, those in this category will be better served with bespoke, especially if fitting irregularities exist.
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I used to think that RTW gave me an absolutely perfect fit. I now know that no such thing exists in RTW.
Of course, not all MTM are created equal and not all bespoke are created equal either. A bad MTM or bespoke job could probably be worse than a good fitting RTW.
Of course, not all MTM are created equal and not all bespoke are created equal either. A bad MTM or bespoke job could probably be worse than a good fitting RTW.
pickwick,
i am also from the bay area and i was wondering if you would recommend the tailor you reference in your post? i have been looking for an excellent tailor...been really tempted by some of the discounted OTR suits available from various sources but know some substantial alterations would need to be done to get a good fit for me and havent found a tailor in the area that i would trust enough.
thanks
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What you've written here is interesting because you are buying an OTR suit that has been made for someone with a 6 inch drop and yet you have an 8 inch drop.
The switching of the trousers is great but it doesn't actually solve the problem. Remember that the jacket has been cut with a 6 inch drop as well so there will be 2 inches of extra fabric around the coat waist.
As you say, you don't notice and neither does anyone else.
This doesn't surprise me as most men (AA forumites excluded) don't have a clue about how a suit is supposed to fit therefore the likelyhood of someone saying to you "hey isn't that jacket 2 inches big around the waist?" is fairly small.
But at the end of the day if you are happy with the fit and it looks good on you then why spend more?
You're right, there are minor alterations which are necessary to improve the fit. Taking in the waist and narrowing of the coat is certainly one of the more prominent alterations necessary for me.
Which returns us to the OP's question. Is it a better value for me to MTM, or have these alterations carried out by a competent tailor with an RTW?
Again, I need to reiterate that I agree completely a well tailored and high quality bespoke garment offers a fit that is without peer in either the mtm or rtw world. Given the same price or even close to it, quality bespoke is an easy choice. The dilemma arises when the choice is between a very high quality rtw on sale for $1,000 - $1,500 (an almost perfect fit after alterations), or full bespoke for about $4,000.
There is no question, that if money were not an issue, I would choose only bespoke ones offered by the finest tailors.
Edit - an 8 inch drop is customary for some RTWs, such as Attolini
I know exactly what bespoke is, and you can get it for less than $1400. In fact there are THREE bespoke tailors less than twenty minutes walk from my house and I know at least two of them will make you a bespoke suit for less than US$1400, and I doubt the third would be priced much differently. One of them is the famous Canadian custom house Lou Myles www.loumyles.com which will make you a custom suit starting at CAN$1200, I believe. I know there are other tailors in Toronto, where I used to live, who will produce a custom suit for the same price or even less, and some of them have been mentioned in this forum.
My own suits and sports coats are entirely made by hand (except for some of the long, straight seams which are done with an ancient sewing machine) from my own pattern by a single tailor who also does the fittings, all in house, and unless I chose a luxury fabric or a lot of extras, they are less than US$1400.
I think you need to shop around, or come to Canada. The salesman in Lou Myles told me that many US Americans come to Canada to shop because their products are much more expensive in the US. I think the reason there are many custom tailors in Windsor (a city of 300 000) is because people come from Detroit to get their clothes made here.
There is so much talk on these forums about the elite London and New York tailors, that people forget there may be local tailors with almost no overhead, no salespeople, no receptionists, no advertising costs, heck even no cash register, who will make you a beautiful suit for much, much less.
I do not have a Saville Row suit or been to a fancy Manhattan tailor, so I cannot judge their work. Maybe their custom suits are better than the ones my tailor makes, although I know my suits compare favourably to Lou Myles and forum expert Chris Despos has described Myles as "excellent" and even used him to outsource his own work in the past.
But I will say this: my custom suits fit better even at the basting stage than any off-the-rack suit ever has, I get exactly what I want every time, my tailor offers an informal sort of lifetime warrantly including pressing at no cost, and they look amazing on me. I would take them over the finest made-to-measure or off-the-rack any time, at any price, from any label.
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Could you please let me know the names of the three bespoke tailors in Windsor that you were referring to. If one of them is Lou Myles who are the other two? Having grown up in Birmingham, MIchigan and having been a one- time observer of the "Windsor Ballet" (only local Detroiters and Windsorites will understand that term), Windsor is certainly an easy destination to get to. Furthermore, having been warned to stay away from Darren Beaman at all costs,I definitely need to consider other options for a great bespoke suit, sport coat, and overcoat.Thank you, drrobert
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Note that I have just edited this post. Originally, I claimed that Lou Myles was not true bespoke. Their website makes claims otherwise so I am recanting my comment. That said, rumour has it that they don't even make their own suits anymore and that they outsource them to another factory in Toronto. I have not verified this rumour.
There are lots of tailors in Toronto that make bespoke, custom and MTM suits. Many of the tailors in the under $1400 range in Toronto use a stock pattern and do not create individual patterns (i.e. are not true bespoke). I have 5 suits made by local tailors because I like the customized fit and like to support small businesses. I consider them great suits, glorified MTM with lots of handwork, but I don't consider any of them bespoke (my most recent one is here: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=58748&highlight=toronto). Of ocurse, all of them were priced in the under $900 category.
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Sounds great...you're in a unique position. I'd love to find someone here in town like that. There is a local tailor here in Atlanta with as you put "almost no overhead, no salespeople, no receptionists, no advertising costs, heck even no cash register" and his base fee is $2500. I would try Mytailor.com but to be honest none of the pictures I've seen of their work have me excited (I may try them for mtm shirts though). If I ever make it up to Canada I'll make a point of seeing Lou Myles.
Lou Myles Disegnatore is on Chatham Street, Continental Exclusive Tailors by Ennio of Italy is on Oulette, and International Custom Tailors is on Wyandotte, all downtown Windsor, all about two minutes drive from the US-Canada tunnel. Email me if you need more information or recommendations.
Lou Myles has a tailor onsite for fittings and alterations, but the suits are made in a factory in Vaughn. International does everything onsite, and I don't know about Ennio.
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