Lapel Roll and Gorge Height

AgentX · Sep 17, 2016

Hi, everyone-

Recently had a made-to-measure suit, for which I was measured in person. Received the finished suit in the mail and thought the gorge height seemed off for a two-button suit, as if it was cut as a three-button and the top button left off.

Wrote to the tailor, stating that I found the gorge too high, and I felt the jacket would simply need to be replaced as I did not think this one could be successfully altered. Tailor responded:

"Thank you for the images well received.
As I checked the style patterns, I can confirm that the button location is correct and is placed according to the length and style of the Jacket.
The rolled lapels are done by hand and are designed to give a gentle curve to the gorge for the authentic custom made production - however if you don't like the roll, it is easy to simply press the lapels flat and it will look like any suit you would typically buy at Neiman Marcus et all - it is very common for people to think it is a 3 button jacket with a missing top button but actually that is not so - it is a rolled lapel and the roll is deliberately put in there to follow the bespoke suit tradition."

Now, as I understand suit construction, roll is a function of the construction of the suit, not a mere matter of pressing it. Additionally, I never looked at any patterns with the tailor, simply requesting a two-button coat and discussing other specific details. I never requested a high gorge; to best of my recollection I said "standard gorge height for a two-button suit."

I also find his conflation of lapel roll and gorge height to be strange. It can and should be rolled...to the correct gorge height.

I have not yet replied, as I want a sanity check. What do you guys think of the jacket?

Thanks-

Searching_Best_Fit · Sep 17, 2016

Lapel roll is created by carefully pressing the lapel around a curve egde of the sleeveboard, but not on a flat surface. In your case, it was rolled too much above the button. I think simply redoing the pressing could solve the issue.

Of course, this also depends on the design of collar and gorge. As some tailor said, short collar, long roll and vice versa. This collar should be able to generate a long roll.

The gorge height is the *current standard* high that is in fashion. If you want something lower, you would need to explicitly specify where you want the lapel width and collar ends. I would tjink that may be pushing a bit for a mtm operation.

IMO, the jacket fits you well. The buttoning stance is ok, once you fix the rolling issue on the lapel. You can check your dry cleaner if they can reroll the lapels for you.

Matt S · Sep 17, 2016

AgentX, I think you misunderstand the meaning of 'gorge'. The gorge is where the lapel meets the collar, but I think you mean the button stance. The button stance (and gorge) both look fine (well, both are a little high, but nothing outrageous), but you are absolutely right about the lapel roll. It looks like a button three jacket missing the top button. The lapel cannot simply be pressed to fix it. All pressing will do is flatten the lapel and not change where it breaks. The roll simply starts too high, and pressing can't really fix that. You can to alter the gorge (where the lapel meets the collar), which will help change where the lapel rolls.

bespokewrinkles · Sep 17, 2016

Frankly that jacket looks pretty good. Leave it for now and just wear it. I bet you'll come to like it.

The only real problem is that the lapels are too narrow and don't have enough belly. The roll would have looked better if the lapels were fuller.

AgentX · Sep 17, 2016

Thanks for the correction on my misuse of "gorge!"

I agree with Bespokewrinkles on the issues with the lapels, but really don't like the look of the jacket because of it and couldn't wear it because of that...it's really too bad, because the cloth is nice and the fit on my body is quite good. But this is just really weird. The lapels don't look either classic or fashion-forward to me...they just look wrong, and unlike any other suit coats I see pictured on the maker's site. I'm also quite skeptical of the ability to re-press the jacket to look better, nor should I have to do that on a made-to-measure garment.

I just don't know how to continue to push this with the tailor, who seems pretty insistent that he's entirely correct and that the jacket is perfect. The dismissive rhetoric concerns me.

Charles Dana · Sep 17, 2016

AgentX said:
Recently had a made-to-measure suit, for which I was measured in person.

Measured in person: good!

Received the finished suit in the mail.

No in-person intermediate fittings? Bad.

Wrote to the tailor....

Long-distance tailoring: generally not good, at least not until the tailor gets your measurements, fit and style dialed in, which rarely happens with the first suit.

I never looked at any patterns with the tailor, simply requesting a two-button coat and discussing other specific details.

In the future, never "simply request" anything when commissioning a custom-made/MTM garment. Never assume that your tailor will do your thinking for you; you will need to do all the thinking, and then clearly articulate your thoughts. Your tailor can give you valuable advice and suggestions, but he cannot read your mind, and as conscientious as he may be, he will never care about your garment as much as you do. Be specific about what you want. (I guess you were specific about some things, but not about enough things.)

I never requested a high gorge; to best of my recollection I said "standard gorge height for a two-button suit."

No wonder you ended up dissatisfied--you and the tailor were not on the same wavelength because:

(a) every time you wanted to discuss "button stance," you incorrectly used the word "gorge." What you were thinking didn't match what you were saying. And:

(b) You asked for a "standard" gorge height. Another mistake. Even if you hadn't screwed up the terminology and had correctly used the words "button stance," you still likely would have been dissatisfied with the jacket because the word "standard" means nothing. It means different things to different people. When having something custom made, never take the easy way out and say "I want standard this" or "standard that." You and the tailor may have different ideas as to what "standard" means. As I said, you have to do all the thinking, because the tailor's not going to do it for you. If you want it, specifically describe it. You have to point at yourself and say, "I want the button stance to fall right HERE" or "right HERE."

I realize that with MTM (as opposed to true bespoke), tweaks are made to a standard pattern and not absolutely every aspect of the garment can be customized. But the client should still be as specific as possible and wait for the tailor to say whether or not it will be possible to do what the client is requesting. That way, the chances of unpleasant surprises are minimized.

I also find his conflation of lapel roll and gorge height to be strange. It can and should be rolled...to the correct gorge height.

Here we go again with "gorge." You're really going to town with that word.

If I'm in a diner and I really want a slice of blueberry pie, guess how happy I will end up if I say to the server, "I'd like a slice of chocolate cake, please." Correct terminology: don't leave home without it.

I have not yet replied, as I want a sanity check. What do you guys think of the jacket?

You're not nuts. The jacket looks decidedly off. It looks like a two-button jacket trying, and failing, to be a three-button jacket. Or like a three-button jacket trying, and failing, to be a two-button jacket. This identity crisis is fatal.

See if if the tailor will do a re-make. If he won't, you've just paid tuition for the seminar called "Whether or not to go MTM--and how to go about it if you do."

16412 · Sep 17, 2016

The bottom of the lapels rolling too high has to do with the collar. The collar has to much curve in its design, therefore, lifting the beginning of roll to the higher place. If it was a minor change the iron might be enough. It's not minor. The easiest way to deal with this is to take some white thread and loop it at the Beginning of the Roll on the edge, about four loops over each other not tight. Do this each side. Then all they have to do is put it on a form, adjust the form so it rolls as yours does, then adjust the lapels to proper roll and create a new collar to fit.

Another issue. The collar is sitting around the neck to low. They should know how to correct this to.

Never call mtm custom. They customize.

paul winston · Sep 19, 2016

As a number of responses have pointed out, the roll cannot be corrected by pressing. The jacket is a "two button short roll." That is what some individuals like. The great majority of two button suits have a long roll. Personal taste being what it is, neither long or short is wrong. To go from a short roll to a long roll can be done by a good tailor. The top collar is removed and shortened. If you were doing it in NYC it would cost about $35-$40.

Paul Winston
Winston Tailors/www.chippneckwear.com

SG_67 · Sep 19, 2016

^ would that result in a shortening of the jacket itself?

Matt S · Sep 19, 2016

SG_67 said:
^ would that result in a shortening of the jacket itself?

No, this only shortens the collar around the neck (not in height), which pulls the lapels to roll them further down.

SG_67 · Sep 19, 2016

Matt S said:
No, this only shortens the collar around the neck (not in height), which pulls the lapels to roll them further down.

Got it, thanks. I was trying to visualize it and I pictured the entire jacket being pulled up.

Fading Fast · Sep 19, 2016

paul winston said:
As a number of responses have pointed out, the roll cannot be corrected by pressing. The jacket is a "two button short roll." That is what some individuals like. The great majority of two button suits have a long roll. Personal taste being what it is, neither long or short is wrong. To go from a short roll to a long roll can be done by a good tailor. The top collar is removed and shortened. If you were doing it in NYC it would cost about $35-$40.

Paul Winston
Winston Tailors/www.chippneckwear.com

I notice that your site sells ties and accessories. Do you also do tailoring of items you don't sell, i.e., can someone walk in and get a suit tailored that they bought somewhere else?

medhat · Sep 19, 2016

I kept reading posts and going back to the original picture. I wouldn't mess with a thing. Collar seems to lay right, the gorge is well within acceptable limits. the lapel roll is simply (to my eye) 3 roll 2.5, which is simply....normal. Trying to guess as to why it seems a touch "off" (to you, again, I'm entirely cool with it) is that perhaps the slim lapels make it look a very minor touch unbalanced.

I this particular case, I'd simply wear it as-is, and you may well come to enjoy the mild uniqueness of it. But, if you remain unhappy, then it's time to shop elsewhere in the future. But I'd definitely wear the suit.

Charles Dana · Sep 19, 2016

medhat said:
Trying to guess as to why it seems a touch "off" (to you, again, I'm entirely cool with it) is that perhaps the slim lapels make it look a very minor touch unbalanced. I this particular case, I'd simply wear it as-is, and you may well come to enjoy the mild uniqueness of it.

There's no one right answer here: some people will dislike the jacket; others will think it's OK. Maybe the OP will eventually come to like it, or at least not dislike it. (Of course, if the best thing you can say about one of your garments is "I think I don't dislike it," then it might be a good idea to give it away. If you don't feel unambiguously good about a garment's aesthetic properties, it doesn't belong in your wardrobe--with the exception, perhaps, of strictly utilitarian clothing meant for manual labor.)

The jacket looks "off" to me because the lapels cross each other too high up. If the crossing point is going to be that high, then there should be a third button--but only in my opinion.

Fading Fast · Sep 19, 2016

Charles Dana said:
... (Of course, if the best thing you can say about one of your garments is "I think I don't dislike it," then it might be a good idea to give it away. If you don't feel unambiguously good about a garment's aesthetic properties, it doesn't belong in your wardrobe--with the exception, perhaps, of strictly utilitarian clothing meant for manual labor.)...

There's a lot of wisdom here. When I feel that way ("I think I don't dislike it") about an item, it usually sits unworn in my closet for years or, if I do wear it, I don't really enjoy it.

I've learned that, for me, the best solution is to either get it tailored if I believe the result will work (meaning, I get to a "I now really like it" point and if the tailoring cost makes overall sense) or I give it to Good Will so that someone else can enjoy it.

dfrussell · Sep 19, 2016

Bit of a neophyte suggestion, which may be totally off base, but could it maybe be salvaged by adding a third button to make it a 3-roll-2 jacket?

Matt S · Sep 20, 2016

dfrussell said:
Bit of a neophyte suggestion, which may be totally off base, but could it maybe be salvaged by adding a third button to make it a 3-roll-2 jacket?

Since the jacket is already tailored for that, I'd say it's a great solution. There's less risk in that than in trying to alter the jacket to a proper button two.

Spex · Sep 20, 2016

I'm on the OPs side in that I would prefer a longer lapel rolling to the true buttoning point. I think it would be odd for a tailor to create this type of "2.5-roll" or whatever, unless the client specifically requested it, which it sounds like he did not.

paul winston · Sep 20, 2016

dfrussell said:
Bit of a neophyte suggestion, which may be totally off base, but could it maybe be salvaged by adding a third button to make it a 3-roll-2 jacket?

I don't think it is a matter of salvaging. It is a matter of what an individual prefers. Because changing the roll is not difficult, that is what I think should be done. I find a long roll contributes to a trimmer appearance.
Paul Winston
Winston Tailors/ www.chippneckwear.com

medhat · Sep 20, 2016

Fading Fast said:
There's a lot of wisdom here. When I feel that way ("I think I don't dislike it") about an item, it usually sits unworn in my closet for years or, if I do wear it, I don't really enjoy it.

I've learned that, for me, the best solution is to either get it tailored if I believe the result will work (meaning, I get to a "I now really like it" point and if the tailoring cost makes overall sense) or I give it to Good Will so that someone else can enjoy it.

Yes, but for some (many?) it's economically unfeasible to cast off a wearable item because of a debatable detail. Outside of the Forum I don't think it would ever warrant a second glance, but agreed, it's entirely up to the OP and how he feels about it.

Lapel Roll and Gorge Height

AgentX

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