Compliments: What do they mean?

arkirshner · Nov 4, 2012

The Rambler said:
Fussell has it right. Compliments are declasse. As Chesterfield, or someone, said, dismissively, of a visitor: "The fellow praised my chairs." Worse: seeking compliments.

Shaver said:
Compliments are declasse!? Rambler, old chap, you are pulling our collective leg in this statement, surely? :icon_scratch:

Rambler cites Fussell accurately, (it was not Chesterfield, rather from the 20th Century). While Fussell is an accurate reporter, he certainly does not report with approval. Indeed, throughout the book his tongue is so far into his cheek as to border scorn. His style is witty, and like much of Mark Twain's non fiction, Fussell's attitude is dismissal of all classes.

His final chapter is a paean to what he calls class X, those who have escaped from the chains of class entirely. Were the host a class X'er, he certainly would not be dismissive, but would simply have replied,", Thank you." The visitor, were he aware that the old money aristocracy find compliments declasse, would simply refrained from offering one.

That the upper, upper class doesn't care for compliments is, other than a tidbit of knowledge, irrelevant, at least in my life. Those I come into contact are those who appreciate compliments, and so I give them freely.

Fussell's day job was an 18th century literature scholar and book, (he wrote many). The Great War and Modern Memory was aclaimed on both sides of the Atlantic. From the Guardian https://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/may/24/paul-fussell . His book, Class, A Guide through the American Status System,https://www.amazon.com/Class-Throug...71792253/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1352045064&sr=1-3&keywords=paul+fussell is part informative, part amusing, and part critical. A great read.

Shaver · Nov 4, 2012

arkirshner said:
Rambler cites Fussell accurately, (it was not Chesterfield, rather from the 20th Century). While Fussell is an accurate reporter, he certainly does not report with approval. Indeed, throughout the book his tongue is so far into his cheek as to border scorn. His style is witty, and like much of Mark Twain's non fiction, Fussell's attitude is dismissal of all classes.

His final chapter is a paean to what he calls class X, those who have escaped from the chains of class entirely. Were the host a class X'er, he certainly would not be dismissive, but would simply have replied,", Thank you." The visitor, were he aware that the old money aristocracy find compliments declasse, would simply refrained from offering one.

That the upper, upper class doesn't care for compliments is, other than a tidbit of knowledge, irrelevant, at least in my life. Those I come into contact are those who appreciate compliments, and so I give them freely.

Fussell's day job was an 18th century literature scholar and book, (he wrote many). The Great War and Modern Memory was aclaimed on both sides of the Atlantic. From the Guardian https://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/may/24/paul-fussell . His book, Class, A Guide through the American Status System,https://www.amazon.com/Class-Throug...71792253/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1352045064&sr=1-3&keywords=paul+fussell is part informative, part amusing, and part critical. A great read.

I am certain that sometimes coversations may go over my head occasionally but I believe that declasse, meaning lower status, does not automatically describe every status below upper class. That is to say, it is an intrinsically relative concept. A prospect may be imagined where a chap could be considered declasse in the eyes of even the humblest station.

At any rate I am pleased to enjoy a social position where freely given compliments do not betray my breeding. :icon_smile:

Haffman · Nov 4, 2012

arkirshner said:
Rambler cites Fussell accurately, (it was not Chesterfield, rather from the 20th Century). While Fussell is an accurate reporter, he certainly does not report with approval. Indeed, throughout the book his tongue is so far into his cheek as to border scorn. His style is witty, and like much of Mark Twain's non fiction, Fussell's attitude is dismissal of all classes.

That the upper, upper class doesn't care for compliments is, other than a tidbit of knowledge, irrelevant, at least in my life. Those I come into contact are those who appreciate compliments, and so I give them freely.

His book, Class, A Guide through the American Status System,https://www.amazon.com/Class-Throug...71792253/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1352045064&sr=1-3&keywords=paul+fussell is part informative, part amusing, and part critical. A great read.

Interesting. I thought concerns about class and a 'class system' were more a petty malaise of my side of the pond than yours. Sorry to hear that this issue exists in the USA too...

Fashion Frank · Nov 4, 2012

Hello all .

I.M.H.O. a compliment is just what it is, a compliment and nothing more .
My folks used to tell me that if I could not say something nice about a person then don't say anything at all.

Most of the time when I am dressed and out and about town, I will get the following and alot of times its from complete strangers, " You look sharp " , " I like your hat " , "that suit looks good on you" etc.etc. etc.

To me, it stands to reason that people genuienly mean what they say when they give you a complement because they are not beholden to me for something and even if they were , they still don't have to go out of there way to " go out on a limb " and say anthing at all.
Just my slant on this .

All the Best , Fashion Frank

The Rambler · Nov 4, 2012

Haffman said:
Interesting. I thought concerns about class and a 'class system' were more the petty malaise of my side of the pond than yours. Sorry to hear that this issue exists in the USA too...

The main point of Paul Fussell's Class is that a subtle but pervasive class system does exist in America, and that its very mention invites disbelief, scorn and contempt. In that book, which attempts to organize decades of his most outrageously witty cocktail party chatter, he does a pretty good job of demonstrating its existence, always, as ARK points out, with his tongue firmly in his cheek. He was a good friend of mine for maybe 40 years, a brilliant scholar and writer, but none of his books made him a tiny fraction of the enemies that Class did, though a number of them set out to be controversial. In fact, he added the chapter on "Class X" to pacify many of his friends, who were irate at recognizing themselves as middle class in their behaviour. However, he stuck to his guns, and refused to back off his main point, that social class exists in America, and that it informs the way we all behave. All the while, it remains a hilariously specific book, from which no one escapes unscathed.

My remark on compliments, inspired by the mention of Fussell, and perhaps a few drinks, was a not very successful attempt at the Fussell style, though there's a bit of truth in it. I actually think that a well-turned compliment is an art form, and though few succeed, most are well-intentioned.

I'll add that I think ARK's comments on Fussell are spot on. The Great War is a masterpiece, and his memoir Doing Battle is deeply moving. Class doesn't come close to those books.

arkirshner · Nov 4, 2012

Haffman said:
Interesting. I thought concerns about class and a 'class system' were more the petty malaise of my side of the pond than yours. Sorry to hear that this issue exists in the USA too...

Alas, we can't do anything about it, but then who can? Let me quote the last paragraph of Fussell's Chapter One:

"The former Socialist and editor of the Partisan Review William Barrett, looking back thirty years, concludes that "the Classless Society looks more and more like a Utopian illusion. The socialist countries develop a class structure of their own," although there, he points out, the classes are very largely based on bureaucratic toadying. "Since we are bound...to have classes in any case, why not have them in the more organic, heterogeneous and variegated fashion" indigenous to the West? And since we have them, why not know as much as we can about them? The subject may be touchy, but it need not be murky forever."

It seems to me that a not insubstantial number of discussions here have an unspoken, and for the most part an unconscious, underlying element of class, e.g. black suits, chinos v jeans, hoodies, tie patterns, and on and on. Those who categorically reject anything that smacks of Anglo-American traditional clothing exhibit unknowingly, (to them), an ignorance of or a refusal to come to grips with the fact the maxim "clothes make the man" has a certain social nugget of truth.

Unfortunately for them, those who insist on arguing most vociferously in favor of such as notch lapel DJs and black suits for business, are condemned to have, as Fussell says, referring to a famous personage, whose name, (to avoid a flame war), I will not mention, " [a] style [that] can be designated Los Angeles (or even Orange) County Wasp-Chutzpah. It registers the sense that if you stubbornly believe your as good as educated and civilized people--i.e., those Eastern dudes---then you are."

On the other hand there are those who understand that to recognize that there is a class structure is not the same as approval. For these realists,a knowledge of conventions and attitudes can serve as a map when walking through the minefield of life.

arkirshner · Nov 4, 2012

The Rambler said:
The main point of Paul Fussell's Class is that a subtle but pervasive class system does exist in America, and that its very mention invites disbelief, scorn and contempt. In that book, which attempts to organize decades of his most outrageously witty cocktail party chatter, he does a pretty good job of demonstrating its existence, always, as ARK points out, with his tongue firmly in his cheek. He was a good friend of mine for maybe 40 years, a brilliant scholar and writer, but none of his books made him a tiny fraction of the enemies that Class did, though a number of them set out to be controversial. In fact, he added the chapter on "Class X" to pacify many of his friends, who were irate at recognizing themselves as middle class in their behaviour. However, he stuck to his guns, and refused to back off his main point, that social class exists in America, and that it informs the way we all behave. All the while, it remains a hilariously specific book, from which no one escapes unscathed.

My remark on compliments, inspired by the mention of Fussell, and perhaps a few drinks, was a not very successful attempt at the Fussell style, though there's a bit of truth in it. I actually think that a well-turned compliment is an art form, and though few succeed, most are well-intentioned.

I'll add that I think ARK's comments on Fussell are spot on. The Great War is a masterpiece, and his memoir Doing Battle is deeply moving. Class doesn't come close to those books.

It was only after spending more time than I should have composing my last post and clicking send that I read you comments. I take your appraisal that I was "spot on" as not only a compliment, but from someone who knew Prof. Fussell, as as high a complement I have ever received. As one is of the middle class, and who cannot but help to aspire to becoming upper middle class, I sincerely thank you.

Regards,

Alan

Haffman · Nov 4, 2012

The Rambler said:
The main point of Paul Fussell's Class is that a subtle but pervasive class system does exist in America, and that its very mention invites disbelief, scorn and contempt. In that book, which attempts to organize decades of his most outrageously witty cocktail party chatter, he does a pretty good job of demonstrating its existence, always, as ARK points out, with his tongue firmly in his cheek. He was a good friend of mine for maybe 40 years, a brilliant scholar and writer, but none of his books made him a tiny fraction of the enemies that Class did, though a number of them set out to be controversial. In fact, he added the chapter on "Class X" to pacify many of his friends, who were irate at recognizing themselves as middle class in their behaviour. However, he stuck to his guns, and refused to back off his main point, that social class exists in America, and that it informs the way we all behave. All the while, it remains a hilariously specific book, from which no one escapes unscathed.

My remark on compliments, inspired by the mention of Fussell, and perhaps a few drinks, was a not very successful attempt at the Fussell style, though there's a bit of truth in it. I actually think that a well-turned compliment is an art form, and though few succeed, most are well-intentioned.

I'll add that I think ARK's comments on Fussell are spot on. The Great War is a masterpiece, and his memoir Doing Battle is deeply moving. Class doesn't come close to those books.

Thank you for this elaboration. I confess I had not heard of Fussell, but now realise that his Great War is viewed as something of a classic. Unfortunately while The Great War is available on the Kindle, Class is not -- although perhaps that's how Fussell would have wanted it...

One of the main reasons I dislike the monarchy in my country is that I feel it prolongates a dysfunctional class system here....but perhaps I am dead wrong about that, it appears it would exist anyway albeit in a different form.

Haffman · Nov 4, 2012

arkirshner said:
On the other hand there are those who understand that to recognize that there is a class structure is not the same as approval. For these realists,a knowledge of conventions and attitudes can serve as a map when walking through the minefield of life.

Amen to that.

P.S. Although I am university educated, came from a reasonably fortunate background and work in the professions, I consider myself working class. I consider this because I have to work to live, and if I stopped working would be impoverished within a matter of months. I'm not really sure what 'middle class' means anymore, as most of the people in the Western world seem to consider themselves 'middle class' and economically speaking probably are. However, my wife considers this an affectation on my part. It's a confusing topic! :icon_scratch:

Wimsey · Nov 4, 2012

The main problem with Fussell's "Class" is that it is entirely focused on a narrow sector of the Northeast which was, among other things, historically known for its anglophilia.

Not that there aren't class distinctions in other parts of the country, but they aren't the same ones.

Having said that, though, in my upper middle class southern upbringing, you didn't give specific compliments to people you didn't know that well. "Why, don't you look nice today, Mrs. Jones," is fine and even expected; "those are nice chairs," is not something you would generally say to an acquaintance. The general idea is that you aren't supposed to notice or talk about people's "things." (So, yeah, compliments about chairs are out.)

I think the underlying idea is that there is a kind of egalitarianism going on where you aren't really supposed to pay attention to whether someone's things are nicer or not as nice as your own.

But I don't think that any of this is really relevant to a woman complimenting a coworker (especially a boss) who is wearing something different. A compliment like that would be strange coming from a man...not for class reasons, but simply because that's not what men are supposed to notice.

CuffDaddy · Nov 4, 2012

Haffman, as others have noted, we certainly have class, and class issues, in America. One difference may be that class is somewhat mutable here. If you learn to act exactly the same way as the upper middle class, then you ARE upper class. I don't know if that's true in Britain; is it?

Haffman · Nov 4, 2012

CuffDaddy said:
Haffman, as others have noted, we certainly have class, and class issues, in America. One difference may be that class is somewhat mutable here. If you learn to act exactly the same way as the upper middle class, then you ARE upper class. I don't know if that's true in Britain; is it?

Hi CuffDaddy, no it most certainly is not. To be truly upper class in Britain you need to be of aristocratic heritage and preferably of very long standing i.e. be directly descended from one or more of the barons who fought at Agincourt rather than someone elevated to the peerage for petty political / economic reasons in more recent times (by more recent I mean the last couple of centuries !!).

(I am being only slightly facetious here ! :wink2

There are lots of people in the UK who affect the manners and lifestyle of the upper classes, I am sure that is no different than in the USA. However, their travails are usually met with only scorn and contempt by those they wish to emulate.

Having said that, we will shortly have a Queen who is the close descendant of coal miners and the daughter of an air hostess, so who needs the class system anyway ?!

Shaver · Nov 4, 2012

Haffman said:
Amen to that.

P.S. Although I am university educated, came from a reasonably fortunate background and work in the professions, I consider myself working class. I consider this because I have to work to live, and if I stopped working would be impoverished within a matter of months. I'm not really sure what 'middle class' means anymore, as most of the people in the Western world seem to consider themselves 'middle class' and economically speaking probably are. However, my wife considers this an affectation on my part. It's a confusing topic! :icon_scratch:

hmm... you consider that to be working class?

Tell you what, let me give you the names of a few working class boozers* where you can go in and announce that definition loudly at the bar.... :icon_smile_wink:

*British slang for licensed premises, normally quite rough.

Haffman · Nov 4, 2012

Shaver said:
hmm... you consider that to be working class?

Tell you what, let me give you the names of a few working class boozers* where you can go in and announce that definition loudly at the bar.... :icon_smile_wink:

*British slang for licensed premises, normally quite rough.

That would be lovely. Mine is a vintage single malt...and a cigar!:redface:

blairrob · Nov 4, 2012

I am completely missing something here. Are posters suggesting that it is not uncommon for people to believe that there is no class distinction north of the Rio Grande? I can't fathom anyone arguing that point without their tongue in cheek, except as a discussion starter in a sociology or philosophy class.

The Rambler · Nov 4, 2012

But they do, Blair. The idea that our democracy is a classless society is widely held, in my experience. Maybe not when people think it over, and really consider it, but it's part of our national mythology (I realize that you're Canadian, or at least live in Halifax). That's why the subject almost inevitably leads to a high pitch of emotion. It's almost a taboo subject.

Shaver · Nov 4, 2012

The Rambler said:
But they do, Blair. The idea that our democracy is a classless society is widely held, in my experience. Maybe not when people think it over, and really consider it, but it's part of our national mythology (I realize that you're Canadian, or at least live in Halifax). That's why the subject almost inevitably leads to a high pitch of emotion. It's almost a taboo subject.

Hello Rambler, how does the class system work in the US of A?

Is it some version of the tiers we have in England? If so, on what basis are the classes delineated?

blairrob · Nov 4, 2012

The Rambler said:
But they do, Blair. The idea that our democracy is a classless society is widely held, in my experience.

I honestly did not know this, but I should have, somehow. Thank you.

Wimsey · Nov 5, 2012

The Rambler said:
But they do, Blair. The idea that our democracy is a classless society is widely held, in my experience. Maybe not when people think it over, and really consider it, but it's part of our national mythology (I realize that you're Canadian, or at least live in Halifax). That's why the subject almost inevitably leads to a high pitch of emotion. It's almost a taboo subject.

People who hold this belief are both right and wrong. It's a very complicated subject.

We certain do not have a 19th century British-style class system based on land, birth, and inheritance, with very little movement between the classes (although even then there was some). We also don't have a class system based on deference between the classes. We also don't have (and this is part of the problem with Fussell's book) many general characteristics you can point to to identify someone as upper class.

Having said that, you can look at educational levels and assets and wages and break people up into "classes." And you can find certain similarities: a lot of the upper middle classes will have high levels of education and will probably try to ensure that their kids get the same thing.

But because more US millionaires (to chose a demographic) are self-made rather than, say, people who inherited their money, there's not a lot of common ground that they will have with other people in that group (again, aside from, statistically, a higher level of education).
When a gastroenterologist, the lawyers whose picture is on the back of the phone book, and the guy who owns a local towing company have similar levels of assets, it's kind of hard to say what makes them a "class," aside from the fact that they each have, say $5 million in the bank. At this level of wealth, they probably don't live much differently from someone earning $100,000 or so (depending on location). But, obviously, they are in a much better situation - and most people would say a higher class - than someone earning $8/hour working 32 hours/week at Walmart.

And of course the tow truck company owner, the lawyer, and the doctor are all going to have had periods in their life where they earned much less than they do later.

However, there is a sort of stickiness wrt educational level, as most college educated people will tend to marry other college educated people and produce college educated kids who are likely to earn more than those without college degrees.

So while you can point to classes and make some very general distinctions, beyond gross generalities, I'm not sure what you get.

CuffDaddy · Nov 5, 2012

Class in America is undoubtedly among the most complicated, subtle, and touchy subjects going. We don't have a formal class system, so there are no bright lines. The definitions of class have changed significantly over time. For example, ethnicity and race used to be the single most important factors (more as disqualifiers than qualifiers), with bias towards the groups that have been in America the longest (excluding, of course, the native americans/indigenous peoples); we've outlawed that criteria in employment, public accomodation, and education contexts. As a result, open expression of racism (particularly the more vituperative, less "genteel" kind) are now themselves indicative of lower class status.

As I indicated before, class in America is mostly a mutable thing these days. While in some circles there are still "bonus points" to be had for having ancestors who "came over on the Mayflower" or who fought for/with Washington (or, in some parts of the country, Lee or Grant), it is generally possible for people to move from class to class. Wimsy is right, in my view, that education may be the single most important component of the class calculus. There are plenty of folks from "good families" who live in "genteel poverty*," but who would have no trouble being accepted at a cocktail party of the richest people in town provided they had the right manners, were well-read and articulate, had good taste in food or wine, knew enough of golf courses or ski resorts or European capitals to participate in some of those conversations, dressed appropriately, etc.

One piece of proof that class still exists is that there are clubs - mostly golf clubs - all over this country that one cannot gain entrance to based purely on monetary wealth. One must be deemed a "kindred spirit." And that often involves being able to behave and speak in a way that puts one within the same class as the existing members of the club.

I say all the foregoing without any expression of approval or dissaproval (except the part about outlawing ethnic/racial discrimination, which I'll enthusiastically call good), and without any claim to completeness, and certainly without any claim of expertise. I'm just trying to give Haffman and others some sense of the deep complexity of class in America.

*Which usually is not real poverty.

Compliments: What do they mean?

arkirshner

Shaver

Haffman

Fashion Frank

The Rambler

arkirshner

arkirshner

Haffman

Haffman

Wimsey

CuffDaddy

Haffman

Shaver

Haffman

blairrob

The Rambler

Shaver

blairrob

Wimsey

CuffDaddy

Top Contributors this Month

Recommended Communities