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Argyle & Sutherland Clarification

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#23 ·
I've got to agree that if clubs, camps, regiments, Indian weaving associations, schools, colleges and universities could claim colours and patterns, then there wouldn't be much left for us non-joiners to wear. Wearing a scheme just because it looks nice seems like reason enough, esp. if one is in an environment where actual members will never be encountered. I wore a wool sweater in the US all through the 80s, and then moved to England. I wore that same sweater on countless bike rides through the Pennines, around East Anglia, and finally on a trip through the Alps. When I posted a pic recently in the WAYWT thread, somebody commented on my Argyll and Sutherland sweater. For the first 12 years of its life I wouldn't have known what that meant, and for the second 12, I hadn't even noticed--even though I have an A&S tie.

My preferred tie scheme is the U of Wales. My own terminal degree is from the University of Sheffield. The tie for that degree, which I bought when I was there, is virtually unwearable. A better combination would have resulted if somebody had, while blindfolded, thrown darts at a colour wheel.
 
#24 ·
GBR said:
Why or why do Americans wear ties associated with regiments when they are not so associated?
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The Rambler said:
I think GBR has a point: I'm amazed at the way the way people walk around in sweat and t-shirts that say Harvard or whatever. I'm such a sucker that I spent a long time thinking "Harvard...really? amazing!" before I figured out what was going on ... but then, I realized that it was sort of an ironic joke, that I didn't get. Likewise with golf shirts for a club you don't belong to, maybe you played there once on an outing -- is that fine?
My wife, who is old school New England thinks that the only time it's proper to wear your club tie is to a club event.

But, I think that regimental stripes are different here, as my fellow countrymen are saying: they're abstract lines of beautiful color with no particular regimental significance.
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Frankly, the folks that make and market the ties/designs in question, are the crux of the problem...far more copies are produced than could ever be purchased by folks who had legitimately "earned those stripes" and then they are marketed to sell to as broad a market as possible. A couple summers back, my wife and I returned to University Park, PA, to revisit Penn State's campus. While there we dropped in at the Penn State Bookstore, in which one could buy all manner of PSU memorabilia...an extreme example of which was a sweatshirt, with a picture of a Yorkshire Terrier and the words..."My Human is a PSU Student!" They also offered several different PSU tie designs for sale, to anyone willing to pay the price. BTW, the Harvard, Yale, University of Pennsylvania, etc. bookstores and alumni associations do the same thing!

Many clubs and organizational societies literally sell their own colors to promote the organizations and raise funds to support other activities! So...who's creating our dilemma...the sellers or the buyers? ;)
 
#25 ·
A guy in the Duke bookstore told me they make millions selling "logowear," and that's not even getting into knockoffs seen everywhere. I suppose one way to look at it is these places, such as Happy Valley or Duke are really sports franchises: I see Phillies hats and shirts everywhere, now that "we" are winners: have one myself. Harvard and Oxford sweatshirts obviously aren't sportsfan wear, but there's a similar something going on, an attempty to draw a little personal glory from the association.

Are ties different? Ben Silver used to (probably still does) offer page after page of "authentic" regimentals. I have no idea if they are, though the stripes go the right way. Frankly it would make me uncomfortable if it was too accurate. They also sold accurate US military ties: one would never wear them unless affiliated, but affiliation with the Royal Fusiliers seems so much more remote.

Still, its the sincerest form of flattery to you Brits: nobody puts stripes together as well!
 
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#26 ·
Cavebear58 said:
Probably for the same reason that I wouldn't dream of wearing the ties of the USMC, USCG, or any other US military body... because it would be disrespectful to those who have done service in those organisations.

Similarly, I wouldn't wear the ties of Harvard, Yale, Liverpool, Neasden, or one of the colleges at Oxford or Cambridge. If I was to wear a university tie, I would wear the one from my university. In this case wearing one of the other would not only be disrespectful to the graduates of those august bodies but also to my own.

It doesn't matter whether you would be 'caught', it is simply indicative of a disrespectful attitude of mind.

Cheers, Graham.
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While I understand the sentiment, I think there's a distinction between stripes & tartans and actual symbols. Especially when you consider the fact that a number of enthusiasts can't even agree on the "correct" colors, arrangement, thickness, direction, etc. I hardly think I need to avoid stripes altogether in the off chance of "offending" a member of a regiment from another time and place.

Additionally, wearing the colors of an organization is hardly the same thing as the decorations of an organization. I would never wear a medal, badge, pin, etc. from any type of organization, but it's clear from the military to sports to other professional and social organizations that the wearing of colors is the primary means of support.

Coleman's right, colors and patterns just don't lend themselves to the same sanctimony of icons and symbols.
 
#27 · (Edited)
The answer is the Duke of Windsor. As the prince of Wales his world tours in the 20's had a tremendous impact on the American wardrobe. The English trade was happy to sell all kinds of Anglo gear to Americans. If there is any issue with Americans wearing regimental ties in America in the year 2010 you can blame the English merchant of 1920's.

GBR said:
Why or why do Americans wear ties associated with regiments when they are not so associated?
Click to expand...
 
#28 ·
Say What ? ? ?

The Prince of What ? ? hehe . . .

C. Sharp said:
The answer is the Duke of Windsor. As the prince of Whales his world tours in the 20's had a tremendous impact on the American wardrobe. The English trade was happy to sell all kinds of Anglo gear to Americans. If there is any issue with Americans wearing regimental ties in America in the year 2010 you can blame the English merchant of 1920's.
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#29 ·
sowilson said:
Because they look nice and have no association here. Is there some international law somewhere that prevents me from wearing an A&S tie? If I travel to England will I be arrested and charged with a crime if I wear one? If not, then bugger off.
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Let's say we all start wearing USMC berets and other insignia over here - becuase they look nice etc etc. I rather suspect that USMC folk will be upset?

You may not commit a crime unless you claim to have an association with the Regiment but you will certainly commit a social crime - something that is not 'Trad'! However we will accept that Americans know no better.

May I suggest you should take the journey you so inelegantly suggest?
 
#31 ·
GBR said:
Let's say we all start wearing USMC berets and other insignia over here - becuase they look nice etc etc. I rather suspect that USMC folk will be upset?
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The scenario you suggest isn't entirely clear. Are you wearing it out of spite or because you like the way it looks? Plenty of people wear US Army field jackets or Navy peacoats, and I've yet to see any ugly confrontations over it.

GBR said:
You may not commit a crime unless you claim to have an association with the Regiment but you will certainly commit a social crime - something that is not 'Trad'! However we will accept that Americans know no better.
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Good.
 
#32 · (Edited)
GBR said:
Let's say we all start wearing USMC berets and other insignia over here - becuase they look nice etc etc. I rather suspect that USMC folk will be upset?

You may not commit a crime unless you claim to have an association with the Regiment but you will certainly commit a social crime - something that is not 'Trad'! However we will accept that Americans know no better.

May I suggest you should take the journey you so inelegantly suggest?
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I see you couldn't be bothered to respond to one of the five or so more rational responses.

I'm sorry but we will never (most of us) take silly striped ties as seriously as you'd like (I for one have promised myself to always only take a thing as seriously as it deserves).

There was a thread a while back on the Fashion Forum about a Scottish politician basically saying that tweed should only be worn by Scottish farmers, and she called British city folk who wear tweed a laughingstock. British responders to the thread treated her about as seriously as I can treat this.

Go ahead and wear USMC gear by the way. Americans are more likely to ridicule than to take any actual offence (although I've been wrong about Americans before). Also, feel free to ridicule us in our striped ties; we are after all vulgar Americans.
 
#33 ·
I feel like we've had iterations of this same conversation before! (Remember the tartan thread?)

I suppose that this is just one area in which we'll have to agree to disagree. To me, as perhaps to most Americans, this sort of thing just isn't that big of a deal. Perhaps this has something to do with many Americans' desire to wear the gear of sports teams they like, in order to show that they are fans. I, for instance, am known to sport a Boston Red Sox jersey to the gym on occasion, and I have yet to play a minute for the Red Sox--or even one of their farm teams.

I grew up around Boston, and there one would constantly see people clad in Boston College gear, many of whom were highly, highly unlikely to be alums, or even to be the parents of alums. They just rooted for the BC Eagles sports teams. To some extent, it seems, Boston College came to stand for Catholic in the Boston area, and many Catholics could show their pride in part through wearing BC clothing. (That said, of course, I'm sure many non-Catholics like BC!)

Right after 9-11, I recall seeing folks in NYC wearing NY Fire Department gear, despite the fact that they weren't firefighters. It was merely a display of sympathy and support, I suppose.

In the American context, regimental ties mean absolutely nothing to almost everyone. Even the name likely means nothing, and would be replaced with "striped tie." As a result, it would be a very odd American, I think, who wouldn't wear one because he hasn't served in a given regiment.
 
#35 ·
As Sir Cringle said, we seem to do this with ever increasingly regular monotony: But anyway my tuppence worth is this, that with some colour combos being used by several different clubs, regts, societies round the world (as evidenced the last time we did a thread on this) no one club, regt etc. can be said to possess the sole rights to any colour combo.
Unless of course it's the ghastly five-colour combo of my Regt tie...because no one else would want to use it! :icon_smile_big:

RAF Regiment
 
#36 ·
^^
LOL. Earl of Ormond, I believe you may have just resolved our present dilemma? Meaning no disrespect to your RAF Regiment, I (and I believe most Americans, cowboys that we are!) would not buy or wear that tie! ;)
 
#37 ·
Coleman said:
Go ahead and wear USMC gear by the way. Americans are more likely to ridicule than to take any actual offence (although I've been wrong about Americans before). Also, feel free to ridicule us in our striped ties; we are after all vulgar Americans.
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Well, I guess that sums up the difference. Firstly, I said that it wasn't in the being caught (ie even seen) it was in the disrespectful mindset that wearing such an item would represent. Secondly, ridicule would simply be one way of reflecting that mild offence had been given. I don't think Brits would 'ridicule' anyone - it isn't our style. Someone who was discovered masquerading as having an affinity that they don't have would be shunned - socially isolated.

There was an interesting inverse case of this in my our own rural community four years ago. Although his family name is, say Andrews, an election was contested and one of the candidates presented himself as "Mr Luke Blank". He was 'outed' as a hereditary peer, "Lord Blank, 6th Baron etc", who had been forced to leave the House of Lords following the reorganisation of it and removal of the right of hereditary peers to a seat there. Without doubt, he had a wish to serve the community, and having lost the opportunity to do so in the Upper House, he was seeking election elsewhere, which is laudable. There are plenty of other examples of this, and they are well known and open about it. What was distasteful in his case was that he tried to conceal the fact. While he was elected, I know that there were some who would have voted for him but chose not to do so because he had demonstrated that he could not be trusted.

Wearing items of apparel associated with a particular elite is an attempt to gain power by association, people do it all the time, but there's accepted means and distastful ones.

There are huge differences between wearing items of association intended for members of a club, regiment, or university etc, and wearing items sold in aid of those organisations. Sad people who buy Oxford University (sic) sweatshirts thinking that others will be impressed are just that. Few University of Oxford students would dream of doing so, and it is the local bookshops and tat shops that make their money in this way not the University (other than through the rent of the commercial premises, which one or other college almost certainly owns). I'm sure that this kind of commercial exploitation of tourists has gone on since medieval days!

Thanks for the offer, but I shall respectfully not be wearing USMC ties (or USCG ones, for which I might have some tenuous link to do) because I have a profound respect for the personal effort that those who have earned the right to wear them have put in.

I'm not sure that this is a US cf UK thing, I suspect it's just a difference between people.

I also suspect that this is a thread that appears with remarkable regularity.

Cheers, Graham.
 
#38 ·
A&S sweaters?

P Hudson said:
I wore a wool sweater in the US all through the 80s, and then moved to England. I wore that same sweater on countless bike rides through the Pennines, around East Anglia, and finally on a trip through the Alps. When I posted a pic recently in the WAYWT thread, somebody commented on my Argyll and Sutherland sweater.
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Strange. I'd be interested in the link. As far as I was aware the British Army sweater is a standard issue across all Regiments? It is crew-necked and more olive green for other ranks and more bottle green and v-necked for officers. If, what you were wearing, was some kind of regimental memorabilia sold in aid of them rather than a uniform item, then I'm sure no-one would object. There's recently been a new tartan commissioned for friends of the Black Watch - it is BW tartan but with an over check of red. No-one would object to anyone wearing either, as the BW is SO widespread in use, but it's a nice way of demonstrating affinity in an appropriate manner without the risk of confusing anyone.

Cheers, Graham.
 
#39 ·
GBR said:
Why or why do Americans wear ties associated with regiments when they are not so associated?
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This is about as useful a question as "Why do Americans insist on driving on the right side of the road?" Things are simply different over here. British regimental associations are generally meaningless to us. A striped tie is just a striped tie.

I think the key point for us Americans is to remember that it ain't so on the other side of the Atlantic. A blue and red striped tie that is innocuous in the USA makes a very pointed statement in London. The best policy for travelling to the UK is to make sure you give you neckwear some thought. Or face embarrassment or being labeled an imposter. One can always wear that exclusive "Customer of Brooks Brothers" no. 1 stripe with impunity.

GBR said:
Let's say we all start wearing USMC berets and other insignia over here - becuase they look nice etc etc. I rather suspect that USMC folk will be upset?
Click to expand...
Doubt it. Our beloved jarheads don't wear berets. (Well, maybe in their off-duty hours, but I simply couldn't comment on that.) We stole the globe and anchor from you.

Scott
 
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Earl of Ormonde
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