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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earnest in Brooklyn View Post
    Apparently, there is actually such a thing as Sea Island cotton. According to Wikipedia:

    Sea Island Cotton

    In about 1786, planting of Sea Island Cotton, G. barbadense, began in the British North American colonies, on the Sea Islands of South Carolina and Georgia when cotton planters were brought over from Barbados.[2] (Among the earliest planters of Sea Island cotton in America was an Englishman, Francis Levett, who later fled his Georgia Plantation at the outbreak of the American Revolution and went to the Bahamas, where he attempted to introduce cotton production but failed.) Sea Island cotton commanded the highest price of all the cottons, due to its long staple 1Ĺ in to 2Ĺ in and its silky texture, it was used for the finest cotton counts and often mixed with silk. It was also grown on the uplands of Georgia where the quality was not so good[2], and was soon surpassed in commercial production by another native American species, Upland cotton (Gossypium hirsutum) which today represents about 95% of U.S production.

    Earnst in Brooklyn,

    Good post.

    There is a good book whose name I forget out on the subject which argues that Sea island Cotton no longer exists and never will again.

    If we were to use the level of labeling laws that the French use for wines as an example then indeed Sea island cotton no longer exists.

    Very high grade Extra long staple cotton does exist but is it as nice as Sea island cotton from a long time ago? I do not know but i would love to hear from a textile historian.

    Certain Ginza strains of Egyptian cotton are favored over Sea Island cotton by artisanal weavers in Italy of the finest cotton such as Carlo Riva.
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  2. #27
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    Default Thanks...and a few thoughts...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Hober View Post
    Earnst in Brooklyn,

    There is a good book whose name I forget out on the subject which argues that Sea island Cotton no longer exists and never will again.

    If we were to use the level of labeling laws that the French use for wines as an example then indeed Sea island cotton no longer exists.

    Very high grade Extra long staple cotton does exist but is it as nice as Sea island cotton from a long time ago? I do not know but i would love to hear from a textile historian.

    Certain Ginza strains of Egyptian cotton are favored over Sea Island cotton by artisanal weavers in Italy of the finest cotton such as Carlo Riva.
    Interesting. I think the book may be right that Sea Island Cotton no longer exists (which is very different than saying there never was such a thing).

    It would certainly be helpful, although probably not practical, if we followed the French model for naming and authenticity.

    I also agree with you that when I am buying Sea Island Cotton today I am probably (most likely) not getting cotton that grew on a few islands off the coast of South Carolina. What I have found is that if you line up five shirts in most stores, the shirt market Sea Island Cotton will be the softest, lightest and most breathable--also the most expensive. I suspect most of what we see labeled Sea Island Cotton comes from Egypt or Turkey (both of which make excellent cotton; I have seen this first hand in Turkey although I have not been to Egypt as of yet).

    In any case, I agree with you. I would like to hear from a textile historian on the matter. I'd also like to hear from any cotton experts on the subject, particularly if they think there is an alternative to what we know (and what is marketed) as Sea Island cotton.

    Interesting discussion.

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    http://supimacotton.blogspot.com/200...hy-it-was.html

    Apparently Sea Island cotton ceased to exist in roughly 1920.

    Other "Sea Island" cottons are just using the name as a brand.

    Extra long staple cotton does exist and makes wonderful cotton and is grown in more than one location.

    Like wine we could spend a long time talking about which is the best....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Hober View Post
    http://supimacotton.blogspot.com/200...hy-it-was.html

    Apparently Sea Island cotton ceased to exist in roughly 1920.

    Other "Sea Island" cottons are just using the name as a brand.

    Extra long staple cotton does exist and makes wonderful cotton and is grown in more than one location.

    Like wine we could spend a long time talking about which is the best....
    Of course, the fact that blog is the mouthpiece of a cotton growers' association in the American Southwest just _could_ be affecting their take on this...

    In any event, I am certain that most of the posters here describing their experience with Sea Island cotton are describing their experiences with "Sea Island Quality" cotton, which generally is a 140s or 160s cotton. The extremely knowledgeable Alex Kabbaz had an interesting writeup on the fate of Sea Island cotton as of a few years ago, which indeed led to the conclusion that "Sea Island" as a designation was meaningless. Since then there has been a movement to reclaim the Sea Island designation and an association, WISICA, has sprung up, along with special holograms to be stuck on any items made with WISICA-certified Sea Island cotton. Pantherella's SIC socks and the special SIC shirts at New & Lingwood are among those that have that sticker.

    I've seen swatches of apparently "real" Sea Island cotton in 100s, 140s and 160s designations. The one "Sea Island" cotton shirt I had made, my shirtmaker himself told me that at this point, who knows what "Sea Island" is or how it differs from the better Egyptian cottons? I've owned various Sea Island Quality shirts, and frankly think that just getting a good quality cotton in 100s or 120s is better than a dodgy Sea Island Quality ("SIQ"), so that, say, the normal Hilditch & Key cotton of a few years ago felt better than Tyrwhitt's Sea Island Quality or Pink's 170s. I have a few H&K SIQ shirts from some time ago and the hand was excellent -- but the cotton is pretty delicate.
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    Having checked that thread earlier, it is missing a great deal of salient information.

    Additionally, much of the information previously appearing in this thread is either inaccurate or incorrect. More to come ...
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    RJ, a good point about always looking for bias by writers.In this case I was simply looking for quick information about the book and not overly concerned about editorial comments


    Quote Originally Posted by RJman View Post
    Of course, the fact that blog is the mouthpiece of a cotton growers' association in the American Southwest just _could_ be affecting their take on this...



    I have not looked at this issue recently but apparently it is an academic fact that Sea Island Cotton is no more as stated in the Agricultural History journal many years ago.

    The Origin of Sea Island Cotton
    S. G. Stephens
    Agricultural History, Vol. 50, No. 2 (Apr., 1976), pp. 391-399
    (article consists of 9 pages)
    Published by: Agricultural History Society

    You can find the first page of the article here from the above citation:

    http://www.jstor.org/pss/3741338


    .......there has been a movement to reclaim the Sea Island designation and an association, WISICA, has sprung up, along with special holograms to be stuck on any items made with WISICA-certified Sea Island cotton.....

    Sounds very much like marketing a good brand name as opposed to actual Sea Island cotton.

    ...... The one "Sea Island" cotton shirt I had made, my shirtmaker himself told me that at this point, who knows what "Sea Island" is or how it differs from the better Egyptian cottons?

    I agree with your shirtmaker. Who is he?

    The point is that indications are that "Sea Island as a brand name is not the same as Sea Island Cotton before 1920.

    A fascinating question is will DNA technology or lost hordes of seeds enable us to grow it again? Possible - but land is much more valuable now in that area. I was on Hilton Head Island around 10 years ago visiting family and I just don't see commercial cotton plantations happening again.


    This issue has more to do with business branding, growing problems, genetics and real estate values than shirt values so everyone in this thread has a roughly equal say.

    Although Earnest in Brooklyn perhaps has more of a say because he has put things in the perspective of daily use - which in the end is what really counts.

    Although when I stop to think - RJ - you also have a special perspective not as a man who loves nice clothes but as a man of the law who has lived in France where the laws are quite strict on regional brands is appellations the word that I am thinking of?

    Assuming, that the agriculturists are correct in that Sea Island Cotton was something very special grown in a limited area for a limited time should all the others who owned, created or whatever the brand name later be able to use it in the French sense of what Cognac or Champagne is?

    I am not talking about international law as most likely the West Indies folks and others can do as they please. I am just talking about plain speaking and honesty .

    In Thailand there currently is a related problem going on with silk that comes from hybrid silk worms that are part Thai and Chinese being labeled and marketed as Thai silk.

    Noina and I are friends with a Thai professor who is very concerned about this issue and as time goes on we want to grow and preserve Thai silk worms on our farm and are being encouraged to do so.

    We are very busy in Bangkok now making ties so perhaps I will hire a Phd student who is interested in the issue to help.

    This can be hard because Thailand like the USA has government agriculture offices in the countryside that gives out new hybrid worm eggs.

    On further thought this whole issue philosophically ties into the issue of labels and country of origin - which is a murky dark subject these days.

    Standing by for your view and that of others who want to take a serious look at the whole issue with which I personally am fascinated and biased in an old-fashioned way........
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    Default Fascinating indeed...

    Perhaps, in the end, the only true honest marketers are the French and the Italians. Roquefort comes from roquefort and so forth. Of course, here in Brooklyn, we have a bunch of guys claiming to do Neopolitan pizza that my neighbor actually from Naples says taste like they came from...well...North Brooklyn. I also understand that a lot of olive oil marked as coming from Italy are pressed in Italy but the olives are from Turkey or Spain or Greece. Go figure.

    But seriously, in any case, I am not under the impression that when I buy cotton that is marked Sea Island, it actually comes from the the islands off the coast. I understand the whole marketing thing. What I am buying is a comparison to what feels a certain way to me. In this case, I am paying a premium for a difference I can feel. All that said, there have been times when I bought a shirt that just said Egyptian cotton because it had the same feel I was looking for.

    I do look forward to seeing this discussion evolve as it will be interesting to learn something.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by goplutus View Post
    $25 * 1.5 = $37.50 fabric cost / manufacturing
    $36 * 1.75 = $63 Cost to retailer
    $63 * 2.3 = $145 Cost to customer

    Not arguing it's reasonable, but it might be logical given the cost of goods.
    I m sure that none of producers can earn 50%. Rate is aprox 15%. We used to produce for the brands for years and in Maras many factories still produce for brands they cant get over 15%.
    Once I saw the price labels on a shirt in a factory I could not beleive that price differences are very high.(x 6)

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    What is Sea Island cotton, why is it better, and how does it relate to other top Extra-Long Staple (E.L.S.) Cottons?

    Sea Island cotton has been termed "the longest, finest, and most valuable cotton grown in the world". The Sea Island cotton grown in the West Indies has an average fibre length of 1.75"-2". This is the world's longest. Its closest widely-recognized competitors are Giza 45, Karnak, and Menoufi, all with fibre lengths about .25" shorter. Karnak and Menoufi are cotton species of days-of-old and no longer figure prominently. To offer a bit of specificity, E.L.S. cottons are defined as those having a fibre length greater than 1.375".

    Why are E.L.S. cottons prized? There are a number of reasons. These cottons are not only longer, but they are also finer in diameter and possess significantly greater tensile strength - often as strong as 50 tons per square inch. This high tensile strength is what permits the spinning of the high yarn numbers (120s and up) necessary to produce the finest shirtings. The longer fiber permits a smoother finish to the yarn, and thence the shirting, simply because there are fewer "joints" than characterize cottons of shorter length. By derivation, the smoother finished yarn yields a smoother finished fabric.

    Sea Island cotton has a long and sometimes checkered history. It was first grown in the United States in 1786 from seed obtained from the Bahamas. Although many attempts were made to grow this special cotton inland, the finest specimens were always grown on the Sea Islands - James, Edisto, John, and Wadmalaw. Although Sea Island cotton was being successfully grown inland as well, the seeds obtained from the inland grown did not retain the superb characteristics for long. The inland growers were dependent upon the Sea Islands growers for a replenishment of seed at least every three years.

    In the first decade of the 20th century, starting in 1902, the culture of Sea Island cotton growing was introduced to the West Indies. Expert growers from the Carolinas were employed to teach the farmers of St. Vincent, Antigua, Barbados and other smaller islands how to grow Sea Island cotton. So successful was this project that within the decade, Sea Island cotton from the West Indies was offering stong competition to the Southeastern U.S. crop. Hit by the boll weevil in 1919, the U.S. Sea Island cotton crop was decimated. In 1924, U.S. production hit an all-time low of 11 bales.

    The sad fate of U.S. production aside, the growing of cotton from the Sea Island seeds continued - and continues - in the West Indies. Various attempts were made to grow it elsewhere including Pima County, Arizona and in Peru. These attempts failed. The primary requirement for successfully and continually growing any certain species of cotton, climate and knowledge aside, is that there can be no other species of cotton growing nearby. With the wanton windborne wandering of pollen different species will cross-polinate and, with rare exception to the contrary, dilute the prized genetic characteristics of the better species.

    The best of today's cottons come from two regions. Sea Island is grown in the West Indies. Egyptian E.L.S. cotton is grown in the triangular area at the mouth of the Nile River roughly bounded by Cairo, Alexandria, and Port Said. Also in the running are Peru and the American Southwest.

    What the future holds for these cottons is yet to be determined. Egyptian Giza 45 has "run out". In lay terms, this means that the quality of the seed has degenerated to a point where the expected characteristics can no longer be reliably maintained. At current usage rates, there exists sufficient Giza 45 cotton in storage to last another 8-10 years. The Egyptian government and private industry are working rapidly to develop a new strain. The continuity of Sea Island production is more certain as the West Indian Sea Island Cotton Association, Inc. (WISICA) strongly enforces proper cultivation.

    Finally, when it comes to shirts, socks, and underwear, what are the implications of the term "Sea Island cotton"?

    1] "Sea Island Quality" is easiest to dispel, for there is no such thing. Either is is Sea Island, or it isn't. Just using a Long Staple - or even an Extra-Long Staple - cotton does not make it Sea Island. All claims of "SIQ" should be ignored.

    2] "Sea Island cotton": Here there are murky waters.

    Firstly, is it certified? That can usually be determined by the presence - or absence - of the WISICA certification shown by a holographic sticker on the product.

    The second qualifier is difficult, if not impossible, for a lay person to determine. This qualifier is: What percentage of the cotton used in the product is Sea Island and what percentage, to steal from the car rental commercial, is "not exactly"? Publicly available specifications are non-existent. Only three methods, two certain and the other less so, can answer this question:

    The first certain method is to remove yarns from the product, unspin them, and microscopically compare their composition of fibres to genuine Sea Island fibres. One somewhat off-balance men's furnishings e-seller has been known to do this at times.

    The second certain method is to follow the "food chain". This requires beginning at the retailer, moving up to the weaver/maker, following the trail to the spinner, and being permitted to follow the incoming certified Sea Island bales through the process from ginning to spinning. In fact, the only persons permitted to see this chain-of-process, aside from the spinner's employees, are the fabric weavers and sock knitters ... and then only rarely. Most of them simply haven't the staff or the time to perform such verification and simply accept the spinner's certification.

    The third method is simple: you could take the word of the third-assistant salesperson who has been with the retailer for at least three months and has no plans to migrate to new employment for at least another three months: He was told that "it is Sea Island".

    An Aside

    1] Why this post? After contributing to the thread referenced above by Medwards, I became curious as to the true state of affairs, rumors, supposition, and vendor allegations being insufficient. I embarked on a research project to ascertain what is correct. The myth of Sea Island is one not easily pierced. Profiting from the term is widespread and the continuation of the shroud of mystery inures to the benefit of the profiteers, but extensive investigation yielded what I have stated above. To the best of my knowledge, it is as accurate as can be determined.

    2] Having tested one product with one of the certain methods above, I can attest to the fact that the Alumo Sea Island fabric is genuine. Having tested another two products with the other of the two certain methods, I am convinced that the Sea Island cotton socks of Bresciani, and those in development by Marcoliani, are genuine. I have also investigated a number of other "Sea Island" claims, specifically by sock makers, and found that, while a percentage of the cotton used is genuine Sea Island, other E.L.S. and L.S. cottons are combined with the Sea Island to produce a less expensive yarn. I prefer not to state the specific products.

    3] A short word about Pima cotton. Often overlooked, geniune Pima cotton is actually an extra-long staple cotton ranging in length from 1.5"-1.675". Though much emanates from Peru, a goodly amount is still grown in the American Southwest. This is a prized, expensive cotton. The American varieties are used by a number of European makers, including Zimmerli, Marcoliani, Bresciani, Facenti, and Albini, for some of their top-of-the-line products. It should not be ignored in one's search for fine quality.

    ~ ~ ~
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    In addition to cotton quality. Mercerization is really important too. You cant imagine the difference between raw cotton yarn and mercerized cotton yarn.

    Much smooth and bright surface can be seen.
    Last edited by kemalony; March 14th, 2010 at 09:58.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kemalony View Post
    Mercerization is really important too. You cant imagine the difference between raw cotton yarn and mercerized cotton yarn.
    The reason one can't imagine the difference between raw cotton yarn and mercerized cotton yarn is that no better maker would even consider using a non-mercerized cotton yarn. Hence, most who value the quality of their clothing have not experienced non-mercerized yarns. In today's market, basic mercerization barely qualifies as a selling-point and is taken as a given.

    Better makers will use yarns that are not only mercerized, but double-mercerized and then singed. Singing (singe-ing) is not crooning at the cottons. It is the process of pulling the yarn through a flame to burn off excess cotton hair-fuzz and create an even smoother finished yarn.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Kabbaz View Post
    The reason one can't imagine the difference between raw cotton yarn and mercerized cotton yarn is that no better maker would even consider using a non-mercerized cotton yarn. Hence, most who value the quality of their clothing have not experienced non-mercerized yarns. In today's market, basic mercerization barely qualifies as a selling-point and is taken as a given.

    Better makers will use yarns that are not only mercerized, but double-mercerized and then singed. Singing (singe-ing) is not crooning at the cottons. It is the process of pulling the yarn through a flame to burn off excess cotton hair-fuzz and create an even smoother finished yarn.
    Right order is first process is singing (gazing) and next process is mercerization.not singing after mercerization.

    Mercerization ungazed yarn is meaningless coz brighness of yarn cant be seen under hairly surface.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Kabbaz View Post
    The reason one can't imagine the difference between raw cotton yarn and mercerized cotton yarn is that no better maker would even consider using a non-mercerized cotton yarn. Hence, most who value the quality of their clothing have not experienced non-mercerized yarns. In today's market, basic mercerization barely qualifies as a selling-point and is taken as a given.

    Better makers will use yarns that are not only mercerized, but double-mercerized and then singed. Singing (singe-ing) is not crooning at the cottons. It is the process of pulling the yarn through a flame to burn off excess cotton hair-fuzz and create an even smoother finished yarn.
    Right order writen below
    1.process is singing (gazing)
    2.process is mercerization.
    not singing after mercerization.

    Mercerization ungazed yarn is meaningless coz brighness of yarn cant be seen under hairly surface.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Kabbaz View Post
    What is Sea Island cotton, why is it better, and how does it relate to other top Extra-Long Staple (E.L.S.) Cottons?

    An Aside

    1] Why this post? After contributing to the thread referenced above by Medwards, I became curious as to the true state of affairs, rumors, supposition, and vendor allegations being insufficient. I embarked on a research project to ascertain what is correct. The myth of Sea Island is one not easily pierced. Profiting from the term is widespread and the continuation of the shroud of mystery inures to the benefit of the profiteers, but extensive investigation yielded what I have stated above. To the best of my knowledge, it is as accurate as can be determined.

    2] Having tested one product with one of the certain methods above, I can attest to the fact that the Alumo Sea Island fabric is genuine. Having tested another two products with the other of the two certain methods, I am convinced that the Sea Island cotton socks of Bresciani, and those in development by Marcoliani, are genuine. I have also investigated a number of other "Sea Island" claims, specifically by sock makers, and found that, while a percentage of the cotton used is genuine Sea Island, other E.L.S. and L.S. cottons are combined with the Sea Island to produce a less expensive yarn. I prefer not to state the specific products.

    3] A short word about Pima cotton. Often overlooked, geniune Pima cotton is actually an extra-long staple cotton ranging in length from 1.5"-1.675". Though much emanates from Peru, a goodly amount is still grown in the American Southwest. This is a prized, expensive cotton. The American varieties are used by a number of European makers, including Zimmerli, Marcoliani, Bresciani, Facenti, and Albini, for some of their top-of-the-line products. It should not be ignored in one's search for fine quality.

    ~ ~ ~
    Alexander, thanks for taking the time to post such a well-researched and thoughtful post. Thank you! If I may take this discussion to the more practical. For dress shirts (and dress shirts only, not shorts), what strategy would you advise for someone such as myself who doesn't have that much knowledge, but is looking for fine, light, breathable fabric regardless of the season? My strategy has been to sort of feel the fabric on the shirt and not get too hung up on what name it is being marketed under, etc. In your experience, is Pima cotton more along what I am describing than "Sea Island"? I welcome any advice you may have for a novice such as myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kemalony View Post
    Right order writen below
    1.process is singing (gazing)
    2.process is mercerization.
    not singing after mercerization.

    Mercerization ungazed yarn is meaningless coz brighness of yarn cant be seen under hairly surface.
    Your order is, of course, correct for single-mercerized cottons but not always for double-mercerized. These, in the best cases, are gassed after the first mercerization and before the second.

    Your allegation that single-mercerization is a meaningful criterion in relation to high quality goods is puffery. Mercerization of high quality cotton is taken for granted. It is not an "extra". The same applies to two-ply which again, in better quality cotton goods, is a given and not an extra.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Kabbaz View Post
    Your order is, of course, correct for single-mercerized cottons but not always for double-mercerized. These, in the best cases, are gassed after the first mercerization and before the second.

    Your allegation that single-mercerization is a meaningful criterion in relation to high quality goods is puffery. Mercerization of high quality cotton is taken for granted. It is not an "extra". The same applies to two-ply which again, in better quality cotton goods, is a given and not an extra.
    again wrong order
    right order is
    1. gassing as dry process
    2.mercerization as wet process in higher be' 28-35 depends on room temprature
    3.Neutralization wet process
    4.mercerization as wet process in lower be' 10-15 depends on room temprature.
    5.Neutralization wet process and finishing processes

    Thats our business since 1977.
    Last edited by kemalony; March 14th, 2010 at 11:47.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Earnest in Brooklyn View Post
    Alexander, thanks for taking the time to post such a well-researched and thoughtful post. Thank you! If I may take this discussion to the more practical. For dress shirts (and dress shirts only, not shorts), what strategy would you advise for someone such as myself who doesn't have that much knowledge, but is looking for fine, light, breathable fabric regardless of the season? My strategy has been to sort of feel the fabric on the shirt and not get too hung up on what name it is being marketed under, etc. In your experience, is Pima cotton more along what I am describing than "Sea Island"? I welcome any advice you may have for a novice such as myself.
    Though not quite as smooth-textured, Pima cotton is a wonderful variety. It is also a better value as the Pima name does not command anywhere near the premium of Sea Island.

    You could, however, be a bit more specific and seek shirts of fabrics made by some of the better mills. These would include Alumo, Albini (and their license for the Thomas Mason brand), Riva, Bonfanti, and SIC Tessuti. You could also be specific as to yarn numbers, often erroneously termed "thread count", by looking for 100s (or better, i.e. 120s, 140s) and seeking a 2x2. You might want to read this Discourse on Shirt Fabrics, knowledge of the information in which will serve to silence all but the most experienced salespersons.

    The country of origin of the fabric is consequential as well with Switzerland and Italy being on top of the list and none other being remotely close.

    In the final analysis, your "feeling the fabric" solution is 50% of the battle. Get yourself a swatch (at least large enough to cover your hand) of a good fabric to use as a comparitor. Also, in the shirt discourse, you'll learn that how the fabric feels after a dozen launderings is influenced by other important factors.
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  20. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by kemalony View Post
    again wrong order
    right order is
    1. gassing as dry process
    2.mercerization as wet process in higher be' 28-35 depends on room temprature
    3.Neutralization wet process
    4.mercerization as wet process in lower be' 10-15 depends on room temprature.
    5.Neutralization wet process and finishing processes

    Thats our business since 1977.
    Kemalony: How you perform your processes since 1977 is fine. I know nothing of Turkish spinneries and nothing of Turkish weavers except that, after testing a variety, I do not use Turkish fabrics in my shirt studio.

    That said, for certain shirt silks, we have our own internal singing operation which is performed after first merc, first singe, second merc, neut, and winding to remove the ghosts of hair-fuzz present even in the finest German cotton thread.

    I am not disputing your method of doing things in any way. In kind I ask you to please accept that yours is not the only way. Thank you.
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  21. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Kabbaz View Post
    Kemalony: How you perform your processes since 1977 is fine. I know nothing of Turkish spinneries and nothing of Turkish weavers except that, after testing a variety, I do not use Turkish fabrics in my shirt studio.

    That said, for certain shirt silks, we have our own internal singing operation which is performed after first merc, first singe, second merc, neut, and winding to remove the ghosts of hair-fuzz present even in the finest German cotton thread.

    I am not disputing your method of doing things in any way. In kind I ask you to please accept that yours is not the only way. Thank you.
    We dont produce shirt fabric but we have friends produce high quality shirt fabric. They export to italy. If you want to try I can send you fabric samples.

  22. #46
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    ...
    Hidden Content
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    * Bespoke Shirts & Furnishings * Bresciani Italian Underwear *
    * Alex Begg Cashmere * Marcoliani, Bresciani, & Kabbaz-Kelly Socks *
    * Alpo Guanti Gloves * Gran Sasso Italian Cashmere Sweaters *
    * Kabbaz-Kelly Bespoke Braces * Kabbaz-Kelly Lingerie *

  23. #47
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    ...
    Pretty sure you're going to need one of these.


  24. #48
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    very interesting post. always very nice for producers to see people is caring about quality and want to have more information about it. This forum is a pay back for all the effort we made to reach the top quality

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Kabbaz View Post
    . Singing (singe-ing) is not crooning at the cottons.
    I'm glad you clarified that.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81Uljv-BGmc

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    Quote Originally Posted by kemalony View Post
    We dont produce shirt fabric but we have friends produce high quality shirt fabric. They export to italy. If you want to try I can send you fabric samples.
    Soktas?
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