BBC 4 "Savile Row" programme part one tonight

[super k]

here in the states, we have to take what we can get

[Rossini]

Originally Posted by whnay.

For those UK members that saw part 2 this evening...how was it?

Have you seen the original version of The Office?

Well, a good part of the programme was devoted to, if you can imagine it, "David Brent goes to China".

[Zingari]

Originally Posted by Rossini

Have you seen the original version of The Office?

Well, a good part of the programme was devoted to, if you can imagine it, "David Brent goes to China".

I think Henry Poole going to China cheapens the brand and is a mistake. But if there is other financial alternative...........

[Franko]

Originally Posted by whnay.

For those UK members that saw part 2 this evening...how was it?

More of the same really, the programmes are not an essay about the differing styles from each of 'the houses' it's a gossipy fly on the wall and a great deal of focus on who's "in" and who's "out".

They did follow the Henry Poole reps' trip to China, the kindest I can say about his trip is than he was on a par with Prince Phillip, from a diplomacy point of view.

The preceding programmes, "Ready to Wear" a sort of history of clothing since the war were a lot more amusing, in a life affirming kind of way.

[Winot]

Originally Posted by Rossini

Have you seen the original version of The Office?

Well, a good part of the programme was devoted to, if you can imagine it, "David Brent goes to China".

My thoughts exactly. Equally cringeworthy without being funny.

There was a lot about Ravi Tailor moving out from the premises he shared with Evisu and consequently being booted out of the Savile Row Bespoke Association. But he's still shown on their website at his new address:

http://www.savilerowbespoke.com/Memb...hony_J.Hewitt/

Me no understand - anyone got any ideas?

[Armchair]

Originally Posted by Rossini

Have you seen the original version of The Office?

Well, a good part of the programme was devoted to, if you can imagine it, "David Brent goes to China".

He was rather crass. Although the second Henry Poole shop was little more than a kiosk.

[Infrasonic]

http://www.nedline.nl/cgi-bin/track/click.cgi?id=1

[Kingstonian]

Originally Posted by Rossini

Have you seen the original version of The Office?

Well, a good part of the programme was devoted to, if you can imagine it, "David Brent goes to China".

Now that you mention it, he did have the David Brent beard and he was a bit chubby. The orange shirt and white tie combination was something DB might wear as well.

I was surprised to see he had tattoos though !

He did not have the nonsense business-speak of Mr. Brent, but he was an insensitive type.

[chrstc]

Originally Posted by Winot

My thoughts exactly. Equally cringeworthy without being funny.

There was a lot about Ravi Tailor moving out from the premises he shared with Evisu and consequently being booted out of the Savile Row Bespoke Association. But he's still shown on their website at his new address:

http://www.savilerowbespoke.com/Memb...hony_J.Hewitt/

Me no understand - anyone got any ideas?

Hello,
I was thinking exactly the same thing myself! Odd...! Also, shouldn't this mean that Evisu should now be out of the organisation as their "bespoke tailoring" was done by AJ Hewitt.

I have to admit that last night's episode left me feeling a little sad. It seems to me that in a profession where craftsmanship is everything and skilled workers are so hard to find that creating an elite within an elite (ie the Savile Row Bespoke organisation) isn't a particularly good idea. An organisation to protect the history of the Row is a great idea but I think all of the tailoring houses with a Savile Row or similar history within a mile or so of the Row should be included on some level (even if only as friends and supporters). The 50 or 100 yard stipulation will probably have to be overturned in time as rents continue to rise, just like the 3 mile residency requirements at Cambridge were.

By the way, did anyone else notice that one of the main figures in the Hanloon tailoring empire, representing Henry Poole, spent the whole time wearing the Denman and Goddard house tie? I'm not normally that observant but that is such a beautiful and distinctive design that it really stands out!

Chris.

[Winot]

Originally Posted by chrstc

I have to admit that last night's episode left me feeling a little sad. It seems to me that in a profession where craftsmanship is everything and skilled workers are so hard to find that creating an elite within an elite (ie the Savile Row Bespoke organisation) isn't a particularly good idea. An organisation to protect the history of the Row is a great idea but I think all of the tailoring houses with a Savile Row or similar history within a mile or so of the Row should be included on some level (even if only as friends and supporters). The 50 or 100 yard stipulation will probably have to be overturned in time as rents continue to rise, just like the 3 mile residency requirements at Cambridge were.

Yes I think it's a mistake and actually underlines the fact that the "Savile Row" brand as they define it is meaningless. It's *not* the same thing as Champagne in which most agree that the location in which the grapes are grown influences the taste of the final product. Moving a good bespoke tailor 110 yards down the street does not diminish the quality of his/her product.

[Miles]

I've recorded parts one and two on my computer, any idea what's the best way to share them?

[culverwood]

The themes as you might have gathered from the above were:

Henry Poole goes to China - an example of how not to franchise a brand and how to devalue its currency. The concession in Hanloon was no better than the one I saw in Tokyo. If you are going to franchise you need to have strong control over the brand. I would have walked out of the contract there and then. The evasion and lunching were symptomatic of how the European is treated in business in China we have a company there so I know. Poor Mr "Brent" was out of his depth.
The sooner Mr Cundy senior retires the better for the rest of the family and the company, I do not know the quality of the next generation but although a nice old buffer he was in another world.

Savile Row Bespoke - should Sexton and Tailor be allowed in. I have some sympathy with the association. If you allow tailors in outside your rules where do you stop. They must find some rules that are workable and stick to them. I would say you have to be on the Row. Having said that I do not think Sexton et all loose out much by not belonging and presumably will not have to pay the fees.

Florence - This part was a little disjointed but seemed to show the tailors working together. There seemed to be the exhibition at the palace and stands at the clothes show.
The exhibition looked fine. But I really think Savile Row tailors attending clothes shows are wasting their time. Their customers are not there. Spend the money on better websites and good PR.
The search through the old ledger books was an interesting example of how companies who pay stiff rents have not yet had the sense to clear out their old archives to somewhere where they have no rent. I am sure one of the Cundy family and the others must have some space in a barn or basement where this stuff could go, again Grant came across well in this area.

[upnorth]

This is truly a fantastic series. I would also be writing to BBC to suggest that they produce a documentary to showcase the tailoring traditions in Naples. I hope they are open to feedbacks and suggestions.

[chrstc]

Originally Posted by culverwood

Savile Row Bespoke - should Sexton and Tailor be allowed in. I have some sympathy with the association. If you allow tailors in outside your rules where do you stop. They must find some rules that are workable and stick to them. I would say you have to be on the Row. Having said that I do not think Sexton et all loose out much by not belonging and presumably will not have to pay the fees.

Hello,
Again I think people need to remember that almost all of the Row tailors have plied their trade somewhere outside of the street at some point in their history. Imagine if the association had been set up in the 60s. Poole (who want the most stringent regulations on this matter it seems) would not have qualified for membership as they were in Cork Street. Even now I would imagine that Anderson and Sheppard only qualify on something of a technicality as their store would certainly be more than 100 yards from the centre of the row in terms of walking distance. I am just suggesting that since the bespoke community in London is such a small one anyway that it would make sense to create another organisation that looks after the interests of bespoke English craftsmanship as a whole, possibly including the shoemakers, shirtmakers etc etc too.

Finally on the topic of Mr. Cundey I believe that you will find that it was actually his son who suggested the franchising idea and that he was not sure about it at all. I will have to re-read the relevant sections in the Poole Founders of Savile Row book but I'm fairly sure that is what is said on the topic.

Thanks,
Chris.

[ashie259]

Having missed last week's episode, I'd looked forward to this week's, but found it quite disappointing. It lacked cohesion and, as others have pointed out, the whole thing seems to be a missed opportunity, given the level of access to Row figures.

Too much time was wasted on toe-curling nonentities such as the fashion journalist 'interviewing' Angus Cundey - she clearly hadn't heard of Henry Poole and was openly bored and uninterested (AC: There's an interesting story behind that - would you like to hear it? Fashion hack: No, just give me a one-line version. )

The Henry Poole representative in Beijing was a supernaturally unappealing character - he managed to be so unengaging that he didn't even make for good 'car-crash' TV. His manners (albeit in the face of extreme provocation from his hosts, who seemed to be on their mobiles constantly, even when shovelling their food in) were abysmal, and the David Brent comparisons are quite proper.

I'd tuned in in the hope of seeing some top-notch clothes 'in action', but was largely disappointed. David Brent looked dreadful in China, I thought - horrible orange shirt and white tie, put together with a very ordinary-looking suit (to my eye, at least) that appeared to be, well, black.

And there was Edward Sexton's partner/assistant/companion. That hair! Those shoes! The horror! (Thought Marie Helvin's three-piece was fabulous, though.)

Overall, the programme had the feel of one of those sleepy 'a day in the life of' things they do at airports/zoos/housing associations: "Back in Mayfair, Jim's expecting an important phone call, and Sally's patience is wearing thin." The part where the 'Savile Row savant' (?) went looking for the old order books should have been interesting, but was badly paced and lacked focus, so it was easily the dullest part of the whole (long) hour.

Shame. Still, I'll be back next week.

[chrstc]

Originally Posted by ashie259

And there was Edward Sexton's partner/assistant/companion. That hair! Those shoes! The horror! (Thought Marie Helvin's three-piece was fabulous, though.)

Unfair I know but whilst watching that segment I couldn't help wondering to myself whether Marie Helvin or the A&F CEO from the last episode had had more cosmetic surgery!


Chris.

[LondonFogey]

It struck me that the enforcement of a geographical rule for the Savile Row association was deeply flawed. As they pointed out in the last episode, most of the traditional crafts and trades have moved out of their old London haunts - eg, there are no journalists in Fleet Street anymore and no greengrocers in Covent Garden. I work for a professional body and to us, the important thing is the enforcement of standards in training and conduct, not where you are based.

We are also developing links with China so it's possible I'll be in the 'David Brent' scenario later this year. I did have to laugh when he was showing the shop assistant pictures of British icons and trying to explain what they were. ('Union Jack'. 'Ahhh...Yungyonga Jackah...?' 'Last Night of the Proms'....'ahhh...promusa?' 'Never mind, just lots of mad English people...')

I also had to chuckle at the Italian 'designer' who did absolutely b*gger all for the Savile Row stand at the show and even got the name wrong on the labels!

Also, is it me, or is the sound quality appalling? The interviews sound like they were done with the same tape recorder they used on Nixon.

[ashie259]

Originally Posted by LondonFogey

Also, is it me, or is the sound quality appalling? The interviews sound like they were done with the same tape recorder they used on Nixon.

I found that as well. I'd turn the sound right up to catch what they were saying, then Paul McGann's voiceover would come back in and nearly blow out my windows.

Same went for the picture quality. Some segments were so grainy that I was on the point of checking that my Freeview box was plugged in correctly.

[Bishop of Briggs]

Originally Posted by culverwood

Savile Row Bespoke - should Sexton and Tailor be allowed in. I have some sympathy with the association. If you allow tailors in outside your rules where do you stop. They must find some rules that are workable and stick to them. I would say you have to be on the Row. Having said that I do not think Sexton et all loose out much by not belonging and presumably will not have to pay the fees.

The SRA should use quality, rather than geographical location, for its qualification. There are several tailors who trained on the Row who now cut and in other parts of the country. Typical examples are those who use Scabal's premises at number 12, e.g. Thomas Mahon. Josh Byrne, who posts here and trained at Henry Poole, should also be eligible.

[Bonhamesque]

Originally Posted by Bishop of Briggs

The SRA should use quality, rather than geographical location, for its qualification. There are several tailors who trained on the Row who now cut and in other parts of the country. Typical examples are those who use Scabal's premises at number 12, e.g. Thomas Mahon. Josh Byrne, who posts here and trained at Henry Poole, should also be eligible.

Totally agree with you and the others who've said that.
To me it's about the quality and cut of the garment and the expertise behind it.
If the cutter is Savile Row trained and the coatmakers etc. are either based on or near the Row or trained extensively on the Row then for the most part that is a high quality SR garment, as long as it is cut in the SR silhouette.

Doesn't matter if the premises aren't on the Row or even in London imo (should be in UK).
As long as the garment is thoroughly checked and meets all the requirements it can be said to be a SR suit.
What about the tailors who don't have premises at all but use coatmakers who make suits on the Row?

I wonder if there's a danger that if the rules are too stringent someone else could set up a rival association and call it 'Savile Row Construction Hallmark' or similar....?

[LondonFogey]

I also liked the little reference to the narrator in the use of the incidental music from 'Withnail and I' (the sort of tootly steam organ music) at several points in the programme.

[Rossini]

Originally Posted by Bishop of Briggs

The SRA should use quality, rather than geographical location, for its qualification. There are several tailors who trained on the Row who now cut and in other parts of the country.

Yes, as others have pointed out, the parallels with Champagne are not exact and I agree that quality is a better measure. Getting training on the Row is a good criterion, for a start. I think it's perfectly fine to be a member of the "Savile Row Association" on that basis. It might apply to tailors rather than entire firms - there would need to be constant review if XYZ tailors in another location had a varying proportion of its capability trained at the Row. They also need to be careful how that membership is reflected in where they say their clothes are actually from. I know it's a slightly different question but is there a suggestion that a tailor who trained in Savile Row, and was there for 5,10,15 years to start a business elsewhere could use the "Savile Row" designation on their clothes? Would this make any sense? Unfortunately, what makes it "Savile Row" from that perspective is the location. Sub-designations of the "Savile Row" label using distinctions between off/on/bespoke/etc. have the potential to dilute the brand.The guys that aren't on the Row but trained there can mention that in their marketing materials - just as long as it doesn't start appearing on the clothing label I think it would all be quite reasonable.

Originally Posted by ashie259

Having missed last week's episode, I'd looked forward to this week's, but found it quite disappointing. It lacked cohesion and, as others have pointed out, the whole thing seems to be a missed opportunity, given the level of access to Row figures.

(Thought Marie Helvin's three-piece was fabulous, though.)

Episode 1 was better. You're right about Marie Helvin's three piece, too.

[ashie259]

Originally Posted by LondonFogey

I also liked the little reference to the narrator in the use of the incidental music from 'Withnail and I' (the sort of tootly steam organ music) at several points in the programme.

Good spot! I missed that, and should have picked up on it, having just come back from a slightly Withnailesque week in a cottage in the Lake District ("I've come on holiday by mistake, causing me to miss episode one!").

[aflamini]

I think the Henry Poole guy in China must be wearing a chinese made suit. The cut was just so bad that it couldn't be cut by a London cutter.

[Bishop of Briggs]

Originally Posted by aflamini

I think the Henry Poole guy in China must be wearing a chinese made suit. The cut was just so bad that it couldn't be cut by a London cutter.

A suit cut and tailored in China, for Kilgour or Poole, should not be called a Savile Row suit. The SRA members who offer Chinese made garments are IMHO actually undermining the value of their association and reputation of the Row. After all, the SRA would not admit WW Chan as a member.