MTM vs custom vs bespoke

[slav2fashn]

can someone please explain the difference between MTM, custom and bespoke?

[mafoofan]

Someone should make a sticky.

'Custom' is a loose term that can apply to 'bespoke' or 'made-to-measure'. By MGM, I assume you mean MTM. Here are the relevant definitions.

RTW (ready-to-wear) or OTR (off-the-rack): a garment you buy that has already been manufactured.

MTM: a garment whose pattern is subject to modification prior to manufacture (different MTM programs allow different levels of modification).

Bespoke: a garment based on a pattern created from scratch specifically to accomodate your body prior to manufacture.

Generally, bespoke offers a higher level of personalization to suit your unique measurements and preferences than MTM. But a bad bespoke maker can be far worse than a mediocre MTM maker.

Some will tell you that there is more handwork involved in some types of manufacture. This is untrue. Some MTM and RTW may have even more hand-stitching than a bespoke garment. There's no good rule of thumb.

Some will tell you that bespoke offers better cloth selection than MTM. This is also untrue. While many bespoke makers may in fact have better cloth selections, some MTM makers may have just as many.

[shawndo]

I'd say if the design was made from scratch, it's bespoke. If the design was made before you came on the scene, it's MTM
That's my rule of thumb

[Alexander Kabbaz]

Mafoofan's definition is 100% correct.

[slav2fashn]

So is there a difference in the typical number of measurements taken for the 3 different styles?
Does a bespoke tailor require a higher number of fittings than a custom tailor?

[manton]

"Custom" has no precise meaning. Anything not off the rack -- from a stock special to MTM to bespoke -- can be and is called "custom" somewhere or other.

Bespoke tailors ususally (but not always) offer more fittings than makers who use alternative methods. But even this varies. The only hard and fast distinction is the presense or absense of an individual pattern.

As to measurements, everyone has their own system and habits. Some take a ton. Others take a few and use a lot of cloth, and just "chip away" at it in the fitting process, much like the way sculptors use marble.

[Alexander Kabbaz]

Originally Posted by slav2fashn

So is there a difference in the typical number of measurements taken for the 3 different styles?
Does a bespoke tailor require a higher number of fittings than a custom tailor?

The preferred nomenclature is to equate "custom" and "bespoke" as the same and Made-to-Measure as different.

A bespoke or custom tailor usually takes many more measurements than a M-T-M measurer. The tailor is starting with a blank sheet of pattern paper and has many calculations to make. These require many measures.

M-T-M begins with a pre-made pattern which is altered in certain places to fit measurements. Depending upon the policies of each different M-T-M maker, more or fewer places of the pattern are alterable.

The M-T-M pattern is one which has been tested over many uses. The bespoke pattern is untested. This is the reason, as Mafoofan indicated, that it is entirely possible for a bespoke pattern not to be at first as good as an M-T-M pattern. A reputable bespoke or custom maker should work through these vagaries until the bespoke pattern is better than the M-T-M could ever have been. "Should" = caveat emptor.

[slav2fashn]

Great answer! Thanks!

[Cornellian]

I have purchased both MTM and bespoke shirts (and of course OTR). Here is my fitting experience with the MTM and the bespoke shirtmaker. The process illustrates some of the differences discussed above:

MTM (Hemrajani)
Measurements were taken of my chest, arms, neck, wrist, shoulders, hips, and my posture/shoulder squareness (or lack thereof in my case) was noted. I selected the fabric, a stock collar (in terms of spread, but could alter collar height and length). I could also make some requests regarding button placement (8 button front for example). Styling such as cuff type, pleats, and front closure were also selected. About 6 weeks later, I had the shirt. The fit was far from perfect, so I tried again, and again, and now I have a good fit. The quality is ok, but buttons do tend to fall off.

Bespoke (Venturini, Vienna)
The same measurements were taken, and a small drawing of my shoulder slope was made. About 2 weeks later I came back for a fitting with a try-on shirt (I can't recall the name of this fabric, but it starts with an M). The shirt is a very raw version of the final shirt, and at this point it was all about fit. Some pinning and drawing on the shirt was done, and two weeks later I came back for another fitting with a new try-on shirt. Same material was used. After I was satisifed with the fit, fabric and other details were selected. Though there were stock collars available, I could do anything I wanted. It was nice to have a starting place though. About 3 weeks later I had the actual shirt. I tried it on. It fit well. I washed it about 3 times and came back for a fitting. The fit was still good, but some minor tweaking was done with the collar (not the body). Shirt fits very well.

Differences in final product:
The hemrajani shirt was about $130 (Mason fabric). The venturini shirt was about $230 USD (swiss fabric I believe, but I'm not sure). The fit on the bespoke shirt is much better. I have one shoulder that slopes more than the other, and the MTM shirts could never really accomodate this. The bespoke shirt does accomodate my asymmetry, and the fabric lays perfectly across my shoulders. The interlining on the bepoke shirt is far, far softer than the MTM shirt (both are fused), and I requested the softest fused shirt I could get from Hemrajani. The bespoke shirt looks much better under coats because the sleeve length is perfect. I still think Hemrajani is a great product, and I really like Joe. I think he is very very flexible with his shirts, and if you want a particular detail, he'll probably do it for you.

As you can see, the fitting process is quite different. While the bespoke shirt is cut from an individual pattern, the MTM shirt is not. In terms of styling, this particular MTM program is quite flexible, others may not be. The bespoke shirtmaker was also more interested in talking about the process/fit/my preferences than the MTM maker.

I suppose if my body were a bit more symetrical, MTM might be a better bet for me. Ultimately the nagging imperfections with MTM drove me towards bespoke.

So there you have it...

[encyclopedia]

I've found a tremendous amount of variation within bespoke when it comes to measurement practices. I've had bespoke shirts from 3 places and suits from 1. The process has been:

Shirt place 1: lots and lots of measurements, came back later to try on a sample shirt in plain cloth with no collar or cuffs (just a finished cotton end at my neck and wrists). Was told a lot of clients vary spread collar v button v point and button v double cuff so wed just check the ends shirt by shirt. Did get measured for each wrist separately for my watch. All subsequent shirts have fit like the first one (with a variety of cuffs and collars).

Shirt place 2: not too many measurements, came back to try plain cloth (not shirting, stiffer and not something I'd want to wear) pattern. Full with cuffs and collar ready to be cut away and shaped. Revisit to confirm pattern fits, place buttons (with pins and marks - not real buttons). All shirts fit the same, though all same cuffs and collar.

Shirt place 3: very few measurements. First try-on with shirt in ordered material and only partially stitched, no cuffs or collar yet. Second try on shirt body has been fitted, plain white cuffs and collar attached, again for cutting/modification. Third try-on cuffs and collar in my fabric, small adjustments to body and sleeves, really checking the cuffs and collar. All shirts fit the same, variety of cuffs and collars.

Suit place: only about half a dozen or so measurements at first. Came back to try on pants that were fabric with no linings or waist and unfinished ends, and a jacket that had no lining, no sleeves to speak of. Lots of pinning etc. 2nd visit jacket and pants still v v far from being a suit but general lengths are right. Jacket collar is attached, removed, cut, reattached etc etc. Pockets are marked on the fabric. 3rd visit - it looks like a suit, lining, pockets, a way to close the fly, etc. Now were placing buttonholes, I think the collar got ripped off again, and some general armpit-area-stuff. 4th visit, finally looks like a suit you'd see in a store: unfinished sleeves and cuffs, otherwise were ok. 5th visit: cuffs, sleeves are set for length. 5.5 visit (later that day) sleeve buttonholes are cut, were done. Ever since then I stop by 3 times: 1) pick the fabric etc 2) check it fits without sleeve buttons 3) pick up. 2+3 are sometimes just a few hours apart, so maybe that's 2 visits.

All 4 totally different schemes. And all 4 fit correctly and consistently. If u trust the tailor (and why r u using them if u don't) then uve got to trust their way. Frankly I don't care whether shirt place 3 and the suit place have patterns for me or not. And I've never asked.