Can someone define "drape"?

[kinnerton]

Is it simply how the fabric hangs and holds its shape, or is there more to it. I know that Will has written at length about fabric weight and the importance of drape. Do some tailoring styles prefer more drape than others? For example, might I prefer the shoulders of my jacket to be snug whereas others might prefer a bit of "drape"?

Cheers,

[DunninLA]

Here's an amateur's answer. How a garment hangs on the body, in response to the force of gravity. Some fabrics reveal their quality by the suppleness of the drape. Poor fabrics (usually) hang stiffly, while good fabrics (usually) are very flexible in how they hang. I can't answer the tailoring question. I can usually tell the quality of a fabric by its drape and the way it reflects light.

[kinnerton]

Of course, if I'd searched a bit first I would have found the question already answered:

http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/f...ad.php?t=53523

[iammatt]

I hope Will does not mind, but here is a picture of him from his blog. I boxed in the area that is the chest drape. This is pretty much textbook as far as I have seen. The vertical folds are drape.

[Roger]

Right, Matt. When I read this thread, I was wondering whether this other (primarily Neapolitan) meaning of drape should be introduced. We can speak about how well a garment "drapes," and we can speak about how a suit (or jacket) "has drape."

[kinnerton]

It looks to me as if there is also a touch of drape where the shoulder meets the arm. Thanks, very informative.

[Will]

Originally Posted by Roger

When I read this thread, I was wondering whether this other (primarily Neapolitan) meaning of drape should be introduced.

My London tailor may employ a Neapolitan but if they do they keep him hidden somewhere in back. :-)

FYI Scholte, who is credited with the concept of drape, also cut his cloth in England.

[Bog]

Tailoring is the opposite of drape. Drape is what roman togas are. All drape, no tailoring. To put drape into tailoring is a compromise, a wink to modernity.

[Will]

Originally Posted by Bogdanoff

Tailoring is the opposite of drape. Drape is what roman togas are. All drape, no tailoring. To put drape into tailoring is a compromise, a wink to modernity.

1935 is modern?

[Bog]

Originally Posted by Will

1935 is modern?

It is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernism


No drape, bespoke tailoring for a perfect, correct fit: Fashion plate from Sartorial Arts Journal, 1891.


Lots of drape: Oscar Wilde in his "aesthetic lecturing costume". Photograph by Napoleon Sarony, New York, early January 1882.

[WA]

Originally Posted by DunninLA

I can usually tell the quality of a fabric by the way it reflects light.

Properly pressed wool reflects no light at all. All light should be absorbed by the wool.

Other types of cloth have other properties.

[MarkusH]

Originally Posted by WA

Properly pressed wool reflects no light at all.

Then it would be black.

[Gruto]

Originally Posted by Bogdanoff

Tailoring is the opposite of drape. Drape is what roman togas are. All drape, no tailoring. To put drape into tailoring is a compromise, a wink to modernity.

The opposite of tailoring must be the sack, cf. the sack suit. I would say that an elegant drape is the result of good tailoring.

[Roger]

Originally Posted by Will

My London tailor may employ a Neapolitan but if they do they keep him hidden somewhere in back. :-)

FYI Scholte, who is credited with the concept of drape, also cut his cloth in England.

True, true, Will and well-documented elsewhere. (Lou Myles, a Canadian, also promoted drape in Canada and the US.) I used the word "primarily," however, to convey the idea that the most prominent examples of this phenomenon today are the well-known Neapolitan tailors and the "Neapolitan silhouette" in general. Would you not agree with this?

[iammatt]

Originally Posted by Roger

True, true, Will and well-documented elsewhere. (Lou Myles, a Canadian, also promoted drape in Canada and the US.) I used the word "primarily," however, to convey the idea that the most prominent examples of this phenomenon today are the well-known Neapolitan tailors and the "Neapolitan silhouette" in general. Would you not agree with this?

I would disagree. There are only a couple tailors in Naples that make a drape suit and none of the RTW brands do. It is still more common in London and anybody in Italy who makes one can hardly wait to tell you just how British they and their suits really are.

[Will]

Originally Posted by iammatt

I would disagree. There are only a couple tailors in Naples that make a drape suit and none of the RTW brands do. It is still more common in London and anybody in Italy who makes one can hardly wait to tell you just how British they and their suits really are.

He beats me to it.

[Roger]

Originally Posted by iammatt

I would disagree. There are only a couple tailors in Naples that make a drape suit and none of the RTW brands do. It is still more common in London and anybody in Italy who makes one can hardly wait to tell you just how British they and their suits really are.

I agree that you won't find implementation of drape in a RTW suit, but I think that this applies equally to the British makers. And although the origin of drape is probably British, I think it could be asserted that the great Italian tailors (Rubinacci, Caraceni) probably do it best today. Not everyone will agree. I also would suggest that drape is now seen as a part of the Neapolitan silhouette (in its truest form, not in RTW expression), although to a lesser extent, perhaps, than the pleated sleevehead.

[iammatt]

Originally Posted by Roger

I agree that you won't find implementation of drape in a RTW suit, but I think that this applies equally to the British makers. And although the origin of drape is probably British, I think it could be asserted that the great Italian tailors (Rubinacci, Caraceni) probably do it best today. Not everyone will agree. I also would suggest that drape is now seen as a part of the Neapolitan silhouette (in its truest form, not in RTW expression), although to a slightly lesser extent, perhaps, than the pleated sleevehead.

I don't really know that I can answer this in any meaningful way. Caraceni in Rome makes a beautiful suit, but it has little, if any, drape. Rubinacci has a good bit, but he is the exception in Naples as A&S is in London. Most Neapolitan tailors do not have a very draped chest, preferring something pretty lean but still soft.

[AlanC]

Originally Posted by Gruto

The opposite of tailoring must be the sack, cf. the sack suit.

It depends on how you define 'sack suit'. Most on the Trad forum, where the sack suit proponents often reside, would define it as a suit without darts. Such a suit can be well-tailored, however.

[Roger]

Originally Posted by iammatt

I don't really know that I can answer this in any meaningful way. Caraceni in Rome makes a beautiful suit, but it has little, if any, drape.

I was referring to the Milanese Caraceni operation (run, if I'm not mistaken, by Mario Caraceni).

[Will]

Originally Posted by Roger

I was referring to the Milanese Caraceni operation (run, if I'm not mistaken, by Mario Caraceni).

I believe you started writing about Naples and were forced to expand to all of Italy to come up with a second example to buttress your argument.

But no-one can make generalizations about about Italian tailors other than to say that most of them are Italian. The Milanese and Rome houses have as many house styles as there are flavors of gelato.

[Mark from Plano]

Originally Posted by Will

I believe you started writing about Naples and were forced to expand to all of Italy to come up with a second example to buttress your argument.

But no-one can make generalizations about about Italian tailors other than to say that most of them are Italian. The Milanese and Rome houses have as many house styles as there are flavors of gelato.

Yes, but which gelato stands have the best drape?

[Roger]

Originally Posted by Will

I believe you started writing about Naples and were forced to expand to all of Italy to come up with a second example to buttress your argument.

I'm a little surprised to see you write this, Will, as it comes across as a touch hostile. And unnecessary. In any case, my initial comments were based on my general understandings of Italian tailoring as I have gleaned these, and those understandings include the perception of Naples, or more correctly the Neapolitan cut or style, as an outstanding example of a style that incorporates drape as a consistent feature (that is, consistent with the other earmarks of this style, such as soft shoulder treatment, etc.). The fact that I can't enumerate the number of Neapolitan tailors that incorporate drape in their house style seems irrelevant to me, and the fact that other Italian tailors--such as Caraceni (actually both the Roman and Milanese branches)--also do so doesn't, to my mind at least, invalidate my earlier comments about Neapolitan tailoring. Feel free to disagree, but let's keep it civil.

Edit: Much later--home from work now. Thought it might be insightful to take a look at a well-received book on suits (and other elements of style), copyrighted in 2006, with which most of us are familiar, and happened on this sentence (p. 61): "The tailors of Naples also make a fine example of the Drape--indeed, many dandies believe that theirs is better than the original and that the Neapolitans are the greatest tailors in the world." Given the author's stature on this and other forums and his unquestionable expertise regarding this topic, aligning the drape form with Naples would seem quite reasonable.

[JKRamirez]

Hello Everyone:

I'm curious about why drape might be important. From the photo in iammatt's post (26 Sep '07) I'm going to guess that the purpose of drape is to allow more movement of the arms before all the "slack" is taken out of the fabric and the seams get stressed. I'm thinking drape is something for the comfort of the owner. Is that about right?

Also, I noticed on Thomas Mahon's weblog (about 2/3s the way down the page of http://www.englishcut.com/archives/cat_technical.html ) two photos and explanation of construction of the back of the coat. In the first photo, extra fabric is "eased in" to accomodate the curvature of the back. The second photo shows the completed garment with very noticable mis-match of the pinstripes at the shoulder - because of accomodating the curvature of the owner's back.

Is drape something found only on the front of the coat or is there drape on the back of the coat also?

[Bull]

Yes, the same easing can be found in a coat w/ plenty of drape across the shoulder blades. I like my suits constructed this way -- drape in the back, but a fairly clean chest.