What car do you drive?

[GWAlex]

I drive a 1996 Toyota Corolla hatchback. It's blue, it's slightly scratched, but it gets me from A to B. I'm still waiting for the time to pass before I can go for my full licence. I'm still stuck on my restricted's, no driving between 10 PM - 5 AM, and no passengers. It's no fun.

[mxgreen]

2007 Volvo S40. I lease it, not sure I would do it again.

[tda003]

Currently, I drive a '05 Toyota Tundra as a daily driver. Gas mileage is in the mid teens, but it's very comfortable (important to me) and does a terrific job of boat hauling.

My "other" car is an '05 M-B CLK 500 cab. On the interstate @ approx 70 mph, it gets 26-27 mpg on premium, although I didn't buy it for that reason.

Past cars: '31 Model A coupe, '29 model A tudor, '50 MGTD, '55 MGTF, '86 M-B 560 SEL, '97 M-B E420, '06 M-B SLK 55 AMG (yards per gallon, but s*** fast) and many VW Beetles from '56 thru '76.

[WouldaShoulda]

Originally Posted by mxgreen

2007 Volvo S40. I lease it, not sure I would do it again.

I looked but got a VW Passat wagon instead. We've been pleased with it.

[46L]

I am currently driving a '09 Jaguar XF Super Charged. I feel like I got a steal because they jacked up all the prices on the '10 models.

[xerais]

05 Honda Accord

[Pentheos]

Originally Posted by mxgreen

2007 Volvo S40. I lease it, not sure I would do it again.

The lease or the Volvo?

I'd never lease. My '02 S60 is wonderful, and I'd love to always own a Volvo. (Until a Chinese firm buys the company from Ford and guts it.)

But my '02 only has 88,000 miles, which means its life has barely begun.

[Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Pentheos

My '02 S60 is wonderful, and I'd love to always own a Volvo.

Since I've been touting the new Ford Taurus in this thread I should note that it is built on the Volvo S80 frame. Just thought I would throw that in.

Cruiser

[ksinc]

My Wife had an S40 before she got the S60. They seem like they would be a lot more similar, but the S60 is a much nicer car IMHO. I actually like it better than the S80 and that seems to not be an uncommon opinion. She has a 2005 or 2006 I can't recall 2.5T? It's graphite gray with silver fleck.

[Pentheos]

Originally Posted by Cruiser

Since I've been touting the new Ford Taurus in this thread I should note that it is built on the Volvo S80 frame. Just thought I would throw that in.

Cruiser

I'm a qualified-fan of the new Taurus. It's a large, beautiful car---it is bigger, I think, than the S80 and the BMW 700 series. (When one pulled up next to me, I thought, "What the hell is that huge beast?")

But at $35,000ish well-appointed ($40,000+ for the SHO AWD), it's hardly the car of the average Joe anymore. That price puts you in German-import territory, and only a nutter would buy a Ford over a BMW 3-series, Mercedes (or Volvo). Hell, you could probably get a nice year-old Porsche for the price of a new Taurus---and that ain't right.

But if they could pull the price down 10-20% or so, they'd be doing gangbusters. But Ford has to feed the UAW-beast, and so that'll never happen.

[Pentheos]

Originally Posted by ksinc

My Wife had an S40 before she got the S60. They seem like they would be a lot more similar, but the S60 is a much nicer car IMHO. I actually like it better than the S80 and that seems to not be an uncommon opinion. She has a 2005 or 2006 I can't recall 2.5T? It's graphite gray with silver fleck.

The S40 and S60 are very different cars, while the S60 and S80 differ very little.

Depending on which years you compare, the S60 and S80 differ only in rear-seat room, while the S40 is frankly tiny in comparison to the S60---to say nothing of it being underpowered. But Volvo has been through many permutations of each model over the last ten years, it is so hard to keep track.

The S60, for instance, for a while came with four different engine configurations: normally-aspirated, low-pressure turbo, high-pressure turbo, and the R-model. Throw in a few different gear-boxes, and AWD, and you have dozens of powertrain possibilities. It's hard to keep track of all these things.

At the top of the heap is the S60R, a truly amazing car. It'll blow the doors off of most things on the street.

In my experience, Volvos are very picky cars. If you get a bad one, I pity you. If you get a good one, you'll have decades of fun with it. So far, mine seems to be one of the good ones.

[Asterix]

Gents,

Quick point on the Taurus versus BMW 7 series size comparison bit. Which BMW 7 series are you comparing the Taurus to? The I or LI? I know it is possible for the Taurus to be bigger than the I but definitely not the LI which seems to be the common one on the streets.

[Corcovado]

BMW 3 series wagon

[Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Asterix

Quick point on the Taurus versus BMW 7 series size comparison bit. Which BMW 7 series are you comparing the Taurus to? The I or LI? I know it is possible for the Taurus to be bigger than the I but definitely not the LI which seems to be the common one on the streets.

The LI is 4 1/2" longer than the Taurus, but the Taurus is 1 1/2" wider. Of course one could buy two of the Fords for the price of one BMW.

I don't think anyone is saying that the Taurus is equal to a 7 Series BMW. At least I'm not.

At the same time I don't think that one can compare the 3 Series with the Taurus. They are completely different cars that would appeal to different people. Personally I wouldn't choose a 3 Series BMW over the Taurus because that isn't what I'm looking for in a car at this time.

As for quality, I don't (nor do many of the professional reviewers) see that the overall quality of the European sedans exceeds that of the Taurus, at least not to a degree that is consistent with the premium price that is paid for that European quality. I have too many friends driving BMWs, Volvos, and M-Bs to not be aware of what the cost of ownership of those cars really is. They definitely aren't trouble free vehicles; certainly not to the extent that the Japanese cars are.

Cruiser

[Asterix]

Originally Posted by Cruiser

The LI is 4 1/2" longer than the Taurus, but the Taurus is 1 1/2" wider. Of course one could buy two of the Fords for the price of one BMW.

I don't think anyone is saying that the Taurus is equal to a 7 Series BMW. At least I'm not.

At the same time I don't think that one can compare the 3 Series with the Taurus. They are completely different cars that would appeal to different people. Personally I wouldn't choose a 3 Series BMW over the Taurus because that isn't what I'm looking for in a car at this time.

As for quality, I don't (nor do many of the professional reviewers) see that the overall quality of the European sedans exceeds that of the Taurus, at least not to a degree that is consistent with the premium price that is paid for that European quality. I have too many friends driving BMWs, Volvos, and M-Bs to not be aware of what the cost of ownership of those cars really is. They definitely aren't trouble free vehicles; certainly not to the extent that the Japanese cars are.

Cruiser

I think the new Taurus is an excellent car and as silly as it may be, my first liking for the Taurus was because of the RoboCop series.

Now outside of dimensions I wouldn't compare a Taurus with any car in the class of the 7 series. It should only be compared to a mid sized car within its own classification. It is almost the same mistake being made with the comparison of the Hyundai Genesis with those high end luxo barges. They are not comparable because there is no way any owner of a premium luxo barge (outside of the fiscal sensibility) would think they are comparable after driving them. Just because a car has similar or more nifty gadgets and an optional V8 engine doesn't make it equal to an Audi A8, BMW 7 series, Lexus LS 460, Jag XJL and an MB S550 or better.

Quality is a relative term when talking about cars because they all have issues especially in the over 65K price range. Most of these are electronic gremlins that comes from excessive gadgets being stuffed into those cars.

From my personal experience, I think the German cars seem to have more publicized issues because half of their owners are ignorant but fussy clowns who feel everything should be perfect in a fancy looking machinery but more importantly because of the limited number and sometimes half-baked technicians we seem to have in the US. Most of the same German cars in Europe don't seem to have as much problems or the problems get easily resolved because they seem to to have more knowledgeable technicians there.

Japanese cars are excellent vehicles and most times rated higher in terms of quality but they are too bland and uninspiring for the average German car owner. True German car owners don't go buying a German car because they want a placid machine, they buy them more for the engine performance, engineering, fit & finish aka snub appeal.

[Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Asterix

Now outside of dimensions I wouldn't compare a Taurus with any car in the class of the 7 series. It should only be compared to a mid sized car within its own classification. It is almost the same mistake being made with the comparison of the Hyundai Genesis with those high end luxo barges.

Neither the Taurus nor the Genesis compete in the mid-size class. That would be left to the Fusion and the Sonata. There is a world of difference between the Taurus/Genesis and the Fusion/Sonata. The Taurus/Genesis are both very large cars that are marketed as the poor man's (relatively speaking) personal luxury sedan. For the bargain price, most professional reviewers say they are both holding their own in this upscale class quite well.

I will admit that neither the Taurus nor the Genesis can match a similar, but much more expensive, BMW in performance driving. But then again not everyone wants the handling characteristics of a BMW. My corner carving days are over. Now I just want a smooth, quiet, luxurious ride and after riding in both of them I can say that the Taurus and the Genesis can both provide that in spades at one half to one third of the cost.

There was a time in my life when the nameplate on the car would have been much more important to me as a status symbol. Not now, but to each his own. My only reason for favoring the Taurus over the Genesis is my desire to buy American for my next car.

Cruiser

[Pier lala]

I'm "driving" a bike!
That's best in Amsterdam.

[Asterix]

Originally Posted by Cruiser

Neither the Taurus nor the Genesis compete in the mid-size class. That would be left to the Fusion and the Sonata. There is a world of difference between the Taurus/Genesis and the Fusion/Sonata. The Taurus/Genesis are both very large cars that are marketed as the poor man's (relatively speaking) personal luxury sedan. For the bargain price, most professional reviewers say they are both holding their own in this upscale class quite well.

I will admit that neither the Taurus nor the Genesis can match a similar, but much more expensive, BMW in performance driving. But then again not everyone wants the handling characteristics of a BMW. My corner carving days are over. Now I just want a smooth, quiet, luxurious ride and after riding in both of them I can say that the Taurus and the Genesis can both provide that in spades at one half to one third of the cost.

There was a time in my life when the nameplate on the car would have been much more important to me as a status symbol. Not now, but to each his own. My only reason for favoring the Taurus over the Genesis is my desire to buy American for my next car.

Cruiser

I stand corrected and you are absolutely right that they are not mid sized sized cars. According to the automobile classification standards, they are large sized/entry level luxury cars. For true class comparison, think Avalon and Maxima on the Japanese side and Audi A6 and Mercedes E300 from the Germans. By the way, Ford used the Audi A6 for benchmarking and comparison.

Please don't get me wrong, they are awesome cars but we need to be realistic and stop the feel good comparisons by trying to compare cars of different classes just because they have some things in common. A Joseph A. Bank Signature series suit (of which I have a few) is not the same as a Presidential line J. Press Suit neither is a Bass Penny Loafer (I also have a couple) the same as an Alden LHS. Even as I'm typing this I have a fully loaded Genesis V8 4.6L sitting in my driveway that I got from my friend's dealership last night to play with for the weekend and there is no way that car can compare to the Audi A8L (the Genesis has more HP) or VW W12 Phaeton in my household. To be fair to the Taurus, I will try to get one for a long weekend to an actual comparison.

For automobile classifications check here!

[pleasehelp]

Originally Posted by Asterix

I stand corrected and you are absolutely right that they are not mid sized sized cars. According to the automobile classification standards, they are large sized/entry level luxury cars. For true class comparison, think Avalon and Maxima on the Japanese side and Audi A6 and Mercedes E300 from the Germans. By the way, Ford used the Audi A6 for benchmarking and comparison.

Please don't get me wrong, they are awesome cars but we need to be realistic and stop the feel good comparisons by trying to compare cars of different classes just because they have some things in common. A Joseph A. Bank Signature series suit (of which I have a few) is not the same as a Presidential line J. Press Suit neither is a Bass Penny Loafer (I also have a couple) the same as an Alden LHS. Even as I'm typing this I have a fully loaded Genesis V8 4.6L sitting in my driveway that I got from my friend's dealership last night to play with for the weekend and there is no way that car can compare to the Audi A8L (the Genesis has more HP) or VW W12 Phaeton in my household. To be fair to the Taurus, I will try to get one for a long weekend to an actual comparison.

For automobile classifications check here!

Out of curiosity, do you write car reviews? I always thought that would be fun, particularly if I had access to a track when reviewing cars.

I think Ford is going to have an uphill battle with the Taurus because the price point doesn’t fit the car’s lineage, even if it arguably fits its current specs. While cars can certainly move among classes, I think it is easiest to do gradually (particularly as the classes themselves evolve). I suspect that the average car buyer thinks of the Taurus as an alternative to the Accord, Camry, Malibu, Altima, etc. It seems like the Taurus is marking a run at the Maxima and 300 segment of the market, which I don’t personally don’t find to be a particularly desirable part of the market because I think that midsized cheaper sedans are generally interchangeable with those cars for most uses, and that more expensive luxury cars are superior to commercial work. I also don’t see the Taurus (including the SHO) taking much market share from BMW, Audi or MB. IMO the Taurus SHO would have had a chance to take a shot at the nostalgic crowd missing a big American sedan with a powerful V8 if Ford had taken that direction - too bad they went with the blown 6 (even if it does perform adequately).

My two cents on German cars (to add to some of the thoughts in this chain) - I agree that the electronic gremlins are terribly frustrating (and often the biggest problems) although I am not sure it is fair to blame American technicians. I’ve certainly experienced some of the electronic gremlins that relate solely to run-of-the-mill options such as power windows and headlights - these are often design or quality control issues.

I also think it is only to fair to point out that the last 10-15 years have shown some pretty serious mechanical problems in some popular German cars. While I have never owned an Audi, I have ben told of problems with their oil systems and transmissions. BMW had the Nikosil problems in their M60 engine (although one more argue that there is no reasonable way they should have foreseen that), the E46 subframe issues and some issues with the E36 subframe and control arms (although I’ve wondered if people just expected those to act too much like racecars and it was driver abuse...). Porsche had the wiring harness issue in some of the 993s and had the serious IMS and RMS problems in the NA 996/7. I don’t know whether MB has suffered any of these issues, largely because I have never been interested in MB. Several of these issues caused extremely expensive damage to the cars.

Setting aside the catestrophic failures (such as those above) and the electronic gremlins, I’ve found that the run cost on German cars is not too bad relative to American and Japanese cars so long as you treat the cars similarly (any car you take to the track is going to require more maintenance than one that is driven on normal roads). IMO the biggest cost differences are: (i) higher insurance, (ii) more expensive fuel and (iii) more expensive tires (that have to be changed more often).

Having said the above, I am still partial to German cars.

[Asterix]

Originally Posted by pleasehelp

Out of curiosity, do you write car reviews? I always thought that would be fun, particularly if I had access to a track when reviewing cars.

I think Ford is going to have an uphill battle with the Taurus because the price point doesn’t fit the car’s lineage, even if it arguably fits its current specs. While cars can certainly move among classes, I think it is easiest to do gradually (particularly as the classes themselves evolve). I suspect that the average car buyer thinks of the Taurus as an alternative to the Accord, Camry, Malibu, Altima, etc. It seems like the Taurus is marking a run at the Maxima and 300 segment of the market, which I don’t personally don’t find to be a particularly desirable part of the market because I think that midsized cheaper sedans are generally interchangeable with those cars for most uses, and that more expensive luxury cars are superior to commercial work. I also don’t see the Taurus (including the SHO) taking much market share from BMW, Audi or MB. IMO the Taurus SHO would have had a chance to take a shot at the nostalgic crowd missing a big American sedan with a powerful V8 if Ford had taken that direction - too bad they went with the blown 6 (even if it does perform adequately).

My two cents on German cars (to add to some of the thoughts in this chain) - I agree that the electronic gremlins are terribly frustrating (and often the biggest problems) although I am not sure it is fair to blame American technicians. I’ve certainly experienced some of the electronic gremlins that relate solely to run-of-the-mill options such as power windows and headlights - these are often design or quality control issues.

I also think it is only to fair to point out that the last 10-15 years have shown some pretty serious mechanical problems in some popular German cars. While I have never owned an Audi, I have ben told of problems with their oil systems and transmissions. BMW had the Nikosil problems in their M60 engine (although one more argue that there is no reasonable way they should have foreseen that), the E46 subframe issues and some issues with the E36 subframe and control arms (although I’ve wondered if people just expected those to act too much like racecars and it was driver abuse...). Porsche had the wiring harness issue in some of the 993s and had the serious IMS and RMS problems in the NA 996/7. I don’t know whether MB has suffered any of these issues, largely because I have never been interested in MB. Several of these issues caused extremely expensive damage to the cars.

Setting aside the catestrophic failures (such as those above) and the electronic gremlins, I’ve found that the run cost on German cars is not too bad relative to American and Japanese cars so long as you treat the cars similarly (any car you take to the track is going to require more maintenance than one that is driven on normal roads). IMO the biggest cost differences are: (i) higher insurance, (ii) more expensive fuel and (iii) more expensive tires (that have to be changed more often).

Having said the above, I am still partial to German cars.

With my obsession with luxury cars (especially European), I should but don't write reviews. I have a couple of good friends who owns some chains of dealerships so that gives me access to trying out some interesting new cars and allows me to buy cars at wholesale prices.

You made very excellent points and are quite right about the other issues that are with those cars and talking about inept technicians, my Range Rover has been with the stealership (the only one within a 50 mile radius) for 10 days because they were trying to find out why the right Xenon HID headlights only comes on intermittently which meant no driving at night. After a week, the best they could come up with was the suggestion to replace the entire lighting for $1,200 and it took my having to educate them this past Friday that the issue with it was a defective ballast that would cost less than $250 in replacement part and labor.

I'm not one of those who has their heads in the cloud dreamily thinking that owning one of those cars means problem free bliss neither am I one who wouldn't give credit as due like the fact that both the 2010 Taurus and Genesis are excellent vehicles but the misleading comparisons (marketing or otherwise) cars of different classes is what is slightly irritating.

[Sir Walter]

Originally Posted by Asterix

With my obsession with luxury cars (especially European), I should but don't write reviews. I have a couple of good friends who owns some chains of dealerships so that gives me access to trying out some interesting new cars and allows me to buy cars at wholesale prices.

You made very excellent points and are quite right about the other issues that are with those cars and talking about inept technicians, my Range Rover has been with the stealership (the only one within a 50 mile radius) for 10 days because they were trying to find out why the right Xenon HID headlights only comes on intermittently which meant no driving at night. After a week, the best they could come up with was the suggestion to replace the entire lighting for $1,200 and it took my having to educate them this past Friday that the issue with it was a defective ballast that would cost less than $250 in replacement part and labor.

I'm not one of those who has their heads in the cloud dreamily thinking that owning one of those cars means problem free bliss neither am I one who wouldn't give credit as due like the fact that both the 2010 Taurus and Genesis are excellent vehicles but the misleading comparisons (marketing or otherwise) cars of different classes is what is slightly irritating.

Other than cost, I would be interested in hearing exactly what you feel are the qualitative points that separates the Genesis from the BMW. It is my understanding that the Genesis does have similar horsepower, and given the reliability record of BMW and the cost associated with the premium German cars, especially those with the technologically advanced computer systems and complexed electronics, I am not so sure the Genesis doesn't make for a good comparison or in someways a better value. Consumer reports rates the Genesis as a Best Buy and gives it rating score of 92 second only to the Lexus LS 460 in the luxury class.

[Ricardo-CL]

Interesting discussion about luxury asian vs europeans... something you don't see very often over here.

From my point of view, I would only buy a brand new german over a korean if I was to keep it for at least 10-15 years, otherwise I'd go with the asian, as simple as that. If I was to buy a used car, older than 3 years, I wouldn't buy the Asian though, although they could perform and have similar features, Hyundai luxury models haven't been in the market for a period enough to track a consistent record of quality.

Eventually, models as the Genesis will get side by side with Lexus or Accura. By the way, does anybody wonder -as I do- why Hyundai didn't create another different brand for luxury models?.

What I really hate about asian cars, is their overpriced parts and aftermarket in general. Can you believe that a front light assemby for my Mitsubishi Outlander is 420 USD, whereas the same for my Mercedes E230 is only 60, made in Japan and Germany respectively. That's why I wouldn't buy an asian if I was to keep it for a long time. Buying parts from alternative manufacturers is out of the question while talking about luxury cars I guess.

[ksinc]

I have a friend that has two new cars in the house: a Saub and Hyundai. His wife makes him drive the Saub. Not scientific, but there you go.

[Crownship]

Originally Posted by Asterix

I'm not one of those who has their heads in the cloud dreamily thinking that owning one of those cars means problem free bliss neither am I one who wouldn't give credit as due like the fact that both the 2010 Taurus and Genesis are excellent vehicles but the misleading comparisons (marketing or otherwise) cars of different classes is what is slightly irritating.

I think the advertising or marketing that compares a Taurus or Genesis to real luxury brands is geared toward those who want the major luxury brand but in reality will purchase a Taurus or Genesis.
You're not going to persuade a BMW, Mercedes or Lexus owner to switch
to a Ford Taurus or Hyundai Genesis because the reviews compare them favorably.
But you could more easily convince a Taurus, or Genesis owner to switch to a major luxury brand like BMW or Lexus ect. because in most minds the prestige resides with those brands.

Originally Posted by Sir Walter

Other than cost, I would be interested in hearing exactly what you feel are the qualitative points that separates the Genesis from the BMW. , I am not so sure the Genesis doesn't make for a good comparison or in someways a better value. Consumer reports rates the Genesis as a Best Buy and gives it rating score of 92 second only to the Lexus LS 460 in the luxury class.

You can make a list of the similarities between a Genesis and a LS460 but in the end you won't get a Lexus owner to switch to a Hyundai. Trust me.



If I was in the market for another car the money I could spend on a new Hyundai Genesis would buy a 2006 LS430 or 2007 LS460 with less than 50k miles.
But that's my rational. Buy the best even if it's used. Oh yes.. the prestige too.

[WouldaShoulda]

Approaching 50k, I like the Cadillac DTS but I better buy one before it gets any smaller!!