Who are the British? personal identity

[Chouan]

^While I understand the points you are making, I think you oversimplify the very complex considerations and factors that go into whether a minority 'nation' should legitimately belong to a larger host country or not. The ire you express towards the IRA donors, Welsh and Scottish nationalists, and your failure to give a likewise example of English nationalism, makes it appear (not saying you are) as if you're just a "United Kingdom-nationalist" trying to dismiss others' equally illegitimate nationalism.

I agree with everything you say about Nationalists twisting history, I see it all the time with Native Americans, but dismissing their cause as but a collection of "myth"-making and irrational squabbling is a bit extreme, and like I said before, a bit nationalist in and of itself. Most people on this earth, once they fabricate a 'group' they belong to, whether it be cultural, political, familial, or religious, automatically assume that anyone among or outside their 'group' can be attributed individually the collective characteristics of that group, whether it be blame, responsibility, achievements or whatever. In reality, the "English" didn't do jack squat to the "Irish"; the heavy-handed English bureaucrats did. Most people forget this when they're in the thick of a ethnic conflict, whether it be in N. Ireland or Palestine/Israel, the group mentality mentioned above cements and becomes immovable for generations.

I'm as irritated as you are by sentimental ballad-singing about 'oppression' when all the host country is/was trying to do was create a equal-footed partnership and mutual unity, but we have to consider in situations like Tibet or British India, whether the divide is just to great to ever bridge, no matter how anti-nationalist, egalitarian we may want to be.

I could give an example of the Welsh language, where the Welsh language experts have invented Welsh words for words that never even exisated in Welsh. Television, for example. The welsh language "experts" have invented a Welsh word for this. As if the Latin construct of television somehow isn't acceptable. A Scottish example. A Scottish friend of mine objects to BBC Scotland showing programmes in Gallic, when only about 5% of Scots speak Gallic, and, historically, only the far North and West even spoke it! Gallic was never the language of the Lowlands, yet, to appease Scottish Nationalists it is imposed upon people who, historically, never spoke it.
An English example could be Kernow. The native Cornish language died out in the 19th Century, yet modern Cornish people are seeking to re-establish it as a regional language. Yet the experts don't even know how to pronounce this language, as they've never heard anybody speak it!

English Nationalism I would classify as the ignorant rubbish peddled by groups such as UKIP and the BNP. The ridiculous assumptions of racial purity and racial superiority that is the basis of their ideology. An example could be the late, and, to me, unlamented Bernard Manning arguing that Dunkirk was an entirely British affair, to quote him, "There were no Pakis at Dunkirk". When this was disproved he was furious because is own myth that he cherished was being challenged.
However, apart from the Victorian myths of British history, which are no longer taught, I'm unaware of any particular cherishing of British myths that excessively extol British heroism, or denigrate other Nations, that are accepted as real History. Modern heroic episodes tend to be largely true; the Battle of Britain did happen, as did Dunkirk. I'd be interested in hearing some examples of British nationalist myths masquerading as British History.
Just for the record, I'm British, of Irish heritage, within an English educational and cultural, Catholic, milieu. My wife is Irish, as my story would suggest. Any ire I express is at the self-serving ignorance of those who perpetuate myths as History, for their own Nationalist ends, not at the Nations themselves.

[williamson]

I could give an example of the Welsh language, where the Welsh language experts have invented Welsh words for words that never even existed in Welsh. Television, for example. The Welsh language "experts" have invented a Welsh word for this. As if the Latin construct of television somehow isn't acceptable.

There is a dilemma here - one must either coin a new word or borrow one from English or another language, and whichever is chosen will be criticised by those who will not understand. Willingness to borrow may be the sign of a lively language; Icelandic refuses to borrow, and coins new words all the time. "Teledu" is a simpler word than "television" (there is no sound in Welsh corresponding to that represented by the s in "television"); there used to be a BBC programe "Telewele" whose name was ignorantly mocked because the mockers did not know that "wele" (behold!) comes from the Welsh word "gweld" (to see) - exactly as "vision".

A Scottish example. A Scottish friend of mine objects to BBC Scotland showing programmes in Gallic, when only about 5% of Scots speak Gallic, and, historically, only the far North and West even spoke it! Gallic was never the language of the Lowlands, yet, to appease Scottish Nationalists it is imposed upon people who, historically, never spoke it.

"Imposed"? No one forces them to watch it. But English has been imposed on the Gaels in the past, as it was on the Irish and also on the Welsh, when children were punished for speaking Welsh in school. It has also driven out Lallans from the Scottish lowlands. And though you mention Scottish nationalists in this context, I suspect that you know as well as I do that cultural and political nationalism are not the same thing.

The native Cornish language died out in the 19th Century, yet modern Cornish people are seeking to re-establish it as a regional language. Yet the experts don't even know how to pronounce this language, as they've never heard anybody speak it!

It would be surprising if there were no clues at all in writings from the time when Cornish was spoken concerning its pronunciation. Breton (closer to Cornish than is Welsh) is very much alive. Celtic scholars are not ignorant fools.

[Chouan]

There is a dilemma here - one must either coin a new word or borrow one from English or another language, and whichever is chosen will be ciriticised by those who will not understand. Willingness to borrow may be the sign of a lively language; Icelandic refuses to borrow, and coins new words all the time. "Teledu" is a simpler word than "television" (there is no sound in Welsh corresponding to that represented by the s in "television"); there used to be a BBC programe "Telewele" whose name was ignorantly mocked because the mockers did not know that "wele" (behold!) comes from the Welsh word "gweld" (to see) - exactly as "vision".

"Imposed"? No one forces them to watch it. But English has been imposed on the Gaels in the past, as it was on the Irish and also on the Welsh, when children were punished for speaking Welsh in school. It has also driven out Lallans from the Scottish lowlands. And though you mention Scottish nationalists in this context, I suspect that you know as well as I do that cultural and political nationalism are not the same thing.

It would be surprising if there were no clues at all in writings from the time when Cornish was spoken concerning its pronunciation. Breton (closer to Cornish than is Welsh) is very much alive. Celtic scholars are not ignorant fools.

I'm not suggesting that they are.

My point about Gallic on Scottish television, which I'm personally indifferent to as I'm neither Scottish, nor live in Scotland, is that chunks of normal viewing time on the BBC are presented in a language that 95% of the viewers don't understand and aren't culturally connected to, in their own perception. Whether Gaelic, or Welsh speakers had English imposed on them isn't really relevant. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Breton is, of course, alive and well, and never died out, unlike Cornish.

A final point about Welsh. I sailed with an AB, my lookout, who was a native Welsh speaker, from Mold, who learned English at school. He ridiculed the "learned" Welsh spoken in S.Wales where it had died out and had been re-introduced as a taught language. One, for being inaccurate, and two, for being pointless and artificial. He also thought that Welsh programmes on television were pointless, as nobody he knew watched them, mainly because they weren't very good. His argument was that he knew that he was Welsh, and was happy about it, and didn't feel the need to assert his Welshness, or denigrate those who weren't Welsh.

[williamson]

A final point about Welsh. I sailed with an AB, my lookout, who was a native Welsh speaker, from Mold, who learned English at school. He ridiculed the "learned" Welsh spoken in S.Wales where it had died out and had been re-introduced as a taught language.

Your informant was himself mis-informed. Welsh has never died out in south Wales; Carmarthenshire, north Pembrokeshire, Ceredigion, the upper Swansea Valley and the upper Vale of Neath are Welsh-speaking to this day - this is a continuous tradition of usage, in no way a re-introduction. You will hear much more Welsh in Llanelli than you will in Mold. Historically, the most anglicised areas are south Pembrokeshire and the former county of Radnor.
The language did largely die out in Gwent and in the eastern two-thirds of Glamorgan, but this anglicised south-east is not the same as south Wales, and there are still small numbers of native speakers even in the old industrial areas.

[Chouan]

Thanks for the information. Perhaps he was showing a North Welsh, and therefore anti-South Welsh form of regionalism.

[Centaur]

English Nationalism I would classify as the ignorant rubbish peddled by groups such as UKIP and the BNP. The ridiculous assumptions of racial purity and racial superiority that is the basis of their ideology.

Your characterisation of UKIP as racialists is completely delusional. They just want us out of the European Union. I don't think racial considerations form any part of their ideology, unless you are to argue that wanting to stop immigration is itself racist - which it isn't necessarily at all.

[Svenn]

to quote him, "There were no Pakis at Dunkirk".

What a coincidence! I just got done watching "The forgotten volunteers", a series about Indian volunteers in WW2, where that exact clip was shown. What a profound shame, apparently to this day many of them neither get pensions from the nationalist Indian government nor from the British. Apparently Churchill didn't like them either, replacing Auchinleck apparently for no other reason than he wanted a more ant-Indian military commander of the Indians. The film explains how Auchinleck spoke Punjabi with his soldiers, and was admired greatly by them, which was reciprocated. It is that kind of benevolent aspect of imperialism that gets overlooked by nationalists. I don't know about in the UK, but in the U.S., you'd be ostracized forever if you suggested India might have been better served if Britain had chaperoned her into a more gradual independence. Hell if i were a Hindu raj of a 17th-century unproductive India, I might very well have requested British 'supervision', if I was going to be conquered by a European power anyway.

[Chouan]

Your characterisation of UKIP as racialists is completely delusional. They just want us out of the European Union. I don't think racial considerations form any part of their ideology, unless you are to argue that wanting to stop immigration is itself racist - which it isn't necessarily at all.

I didn't say that UKIP were racist, I said that they peddled ignorant rubbish, which they do.

[Centaur]

I didn't say that UKIP were racist, I said that they peddled ignorant rubbish, which they do.

You said 'ridiculous assumptions' about racial purity were the 'basis of their ideology' - OK - but you're not saying they are racist??

When the euro finally expires under the weight of Club Med debt (it won't be long), perhaps some of UKIP's ignorant rubbish will seem more appealing?

[Earl of Ormonde]

Come on Centaur, have you listened to any of the speeches made by Nick and his mates in UKIP over the last few months up to the Election. Initially I thought they were amusing, especially Nick's performances at the EU. But then all of a sudden about 3 months ago, little unsavoury barbs started creeping in about the lives of EU politicians and about people coming to the UK. Reading between the lines, as some journalists and websites have done, it seems to me that UKIP is nothing more than the "respectable" face of the National Front and the British Movement. I don't mince my words, I think they are racist.

[Earl of Ormonde]

Your informant was himself mis-informed. Welsh has never died out in south Wales; Carmarthenshire, north Pembrokeshire, Ceredigion, the upper Swansea Valley and the upper Vale of Neath are Welsh-speaking to this day - this is a continuous tradition of usage, in no way a re-introduction. You will hear much more Welsh in Llanelli than you will in Mold. Historically, the most anglicised areas are south Pembrokeshire and the former county of Radnor.
The language did largely die out in Gwent and in the eastern two-thirds of Glamorgan, but this anglicised south-east is not the same as south Wales, and there are still small numbers of native speakers even in the old industrial areas.

When I studied Irish at the Camden Working Men's College, both the Irish teacher and a Welsh student informed the class that Welsh was now only spoken in the North. I've experienced Welsh being spoken several times in the north and on Anglessey, from as early as when I was a kid visiting the Colwyn Bay area, several summers because we had cousins in Birkenhead, to as late as 1996, taking the car ferry from Holyhead to Dun Laoghaire; but I've never heard anyone speaking Welsh in Fishguard or other parts of mid-Wales. I've not been in the south enough to pass judgement.

[Centaur]

Come on Centaur, have you listened to any of the speeches made by Nick and his mates in UKIP over the last few months up to the Election. Initially I thought they were amusing, especially Nick's performances at the EU. But then all of a sudden about 3 months ago, little unsavoury barbs started creeping in about the lives of EU politicians and about people coming to the UK. Reading between the lines, as some journalists and websites have done, it seems to me that UKIP is nothing more than the "respectable" face of the National Front and the British Movement. I don't mince my words, I think they are racist.

Think that if you like. I didn't vote for UKIP as it happens, but I am probably not alone in thinking there is a good argument for leaving the EU as soon as possible, and for saying that the supporters of European integration are at the tail-end of a long line going back to Hitler and Bonaparte.
I object to the water being muddied with the slur of racism - there is no connection, it's a distraction from the main issue. The BNP are separate altogether from UKIP.

[Earl of Ormonde]

Think that if you like. I didn't vote for UKIP as it happens, but I am probably not alone in thinking there is a good argument for leaving the EU as soon as possible, and for saying that the supporters of European integration are at the tail-end of a long line going back to Hitler and Bonaparte.
I object to the water being muddied with the slur of racism - there is no connection, it's a distraction from the main issue. The BNP are separate altogether from UKIP.

Don't get me wrong, I'm as anti-EU as they come. BUT I call it as I see it, no smoke wihtout fire. A racist comment, an insinuation or an attitude that tends towards racism IS racism in my book.

[VictorRomeo]

You know neither party are stupid enough to make blatantly racist comments or statements, well certianly not in this day and age. Sure, the BNP and their past is what it is and as slick as they try to become (since they dropped the term "non-white immigration"- though one might argue that the did this so that they could include the Polish in their crossfire), they'll always only ever be know for what they are. They say 'Ethnic Nationalists'. I say racists.

Now, the UKIP are a cleverer bunch altogether. They make no bones whatsover of their right wing dogma. They are euroskeptics and their dogma of national conservatism is deeply rooted in limiting/halting immigration. But then I'm saying what is already known. The have of course had the odd speed wobble along the way.... For example when London UKIP Chairman Paul Wiffen accused last month of making racist comments posted - in ire - the following on a magazines website...

"You Left-wing scum are all the same, wanting to hand our birthright to Romanian gypsies who beat their wives and children into begging and stealing money they can gamble with, Muslim nutters who want to kill us and put us all under medieval Sharia law, the same Africans who sold their Afro-Caribbean brothers into a slavery that Britain was the first to abolish.”

Of course, he was suspended from his position....

And then there was Frank Warren when he refused to campaign in Camden as there were 'too many gays'. He later clarified "I don't want to campaign around gays...I don't think they do a lot for society...what I have a problem with is them openly flaunting their sexuality."

So, perhaps they don't consider themselves racist, especially in the BNP sense.

But they do seem to attract bigots into it's fold - Malcolm Pearson being one of them.

[Earl of Ormonde]

In reality, the "English" didn't do jack squat to the "Irish"; the heavy-handed English bureaucrats did.

I beg your pardon!!! Either you're writing that to provoke OR you adhere to the naive notion that a government and its military are devoid of the people of the nation. Well, I've got news for you, the British government is a democracy and is democratically elected therefore it represents the people. Also since 1960, (when National Service ended in the UK) ALL personnel in the British armed forces have been volunteers. The English, Welsh, Scotiish and yes even Irish soldiers in the British armed forces in Northern Ireland since 1969 have ALL been volunteers. Those soldiers are of the people, they are normal lads representing British society, I know, I was one of them. The only difference being that I refused to serve in Northern Ireland. So don't write such utter rubbish and nonsense like "the "English" didn't do jack squat to the Irish" becasue they did terrible things and often!!! And don't try to blame politicians. READ HISTORY INSTEAD!

From Cromwell's clearances and atrocities - "Connaught or Hell" to the Black & Tans in the 1910s to the B specials and the UDR in Northern Ireland since 1969! I don't know who's worse you with your romanticism and lack of historical knowledge regarding the Isles or Chouan with his blanket refusals of Irish historical facts.

[Centaur]

I think you have to accept that it's a persistent aspect of Britishness, isn't it, to like a good fight, a bit of a scrap? I'm not sure a willingness to join up and serve was necessarily evidence of any latent anti-Irish sentiment, at least in the 70s and early 80s, even when the army was quite actively engaged there. My great uncle told me a lot of the Black & Tans only joined up because they would have been unemployed otherwise.

[Svenn]

I beg your pardon!!! Either you're writing that to provoke OR you adhere to the naive notion that a government and its military are devoid of the people of the nation. Well, I've got news for you, the British government is a democracy and is democratically elected therefore it represents the people. Also since 1960, (when National Service ended in the UK) ALL personnel in the British armed forces have been volunteers. The English, Welsh, Scotiish and yes even Irish soldiers in the British armed forces in Northern Ireland since 1969 have ALL been volunteers. Those soldiers are of the people, they are normal lads representing British society, I know, I was one of them. The only difference being that I refused to serve in Northern Ireland. So don't write such utter rubbish and nonsense like "the "English" didn't do jack squat to the Irish" becasue they did terrible things and often!!! And don't try to blame politicians. READ HISTORY INSTEAD!

I don't know who's worse you with your romanticism and lack of historical knowledge regarding the Isles or Chouan with his blanket refusals of Irish historical facts.

Earl, the emotional, ad hominem insults above are not called for; I have kept every post in this thread respectful and non-personal... if you want appear like a rational, level headed fellow in this thread, and not like some drunken pub patron on her menses, I suggest you return the favor.

First, I might remind you that I respectfully corrected some of your inaccurate, similarly emotional "historical" statements on page 3 of this thread and you never responded, so don't start accusing me of having a 'lack of historical knowledge.' Second, you don't appear to have picked up on the subtle point I was making with the quote above, either that or you are fellow bigot like the very Englishmen you disdain. Saying a small armed force or a few governmental actions somehow represent the entirety of English society and its people, merely because there was a partial aspect of democracy or volunteerism to it, is one of the most dangerous and irresponsible statements I've seen in a long time. That kind of blanket over-generalizing is only a step away from the conceptual groundwork for genocide my dear friend. Every society and people in this world are almost entirely made up of good folk just trying to get by. Just because a few young kids volunteered in some heavy-handed actions made by a 'democratic' (*ahem) government, does not mean blame can be entirely placed on "England" or some vague conceptualization you have of "the English people." The vast majority of 'the English' had nothing to do with the atrocities against the Irish... jack squat in fact .

[Earl of Ormonde]

[QUOTE=Svenn;1106625]Svenn, you clearly haven't got a clue about anything related to Ireland and not much about the UK either. You didn't experience the rabid anti-Irish racism in England from "normal" people throughout the 70s, 80s and early 90s, when many English people assumed all Irish poeple were terrorists, both those in GB and those in Irleand. In fact the more you write to make yourself look informed the more I see that you really are just a chancer guessing your way forward. The biggest laugh you gave me was when you put up an image of a 1707 union flag that has never existed and asked why it fell out of use..LOL!!! It was never even in use, it was simply a misinterpretaiton of a flag emblazonment, no one has ever seen an example of it, because none exist. Make sure next time when you're trying to bullshit people about flags that they aren't amateur vexillologists!

Now, if you can't have a good discussion like a normal bloke, instead of all this pompous self-important twoddle that you write, like some arrogant professor, then I have no interest in discussing anything with you. By the way, you didn't correct anything I wrote. Goodbye!

[Chouan]

Earl, the emotional, ad hominem insults above are not called for; I have kept every post in this thread respectful and non-personal... if you want appear like a rational, level headed fellow in this thread, and not like some drunken pub patron on her menses, I suggest you return the favor.

First, I might remind you that I respectfully corrected some of your inaccurate, similarly emotional "historical" statements on page 3 of this thread and you never responded, so don't start accusing me of having a 'lack of historical knowledge.' Second, you don't appear to have picked up on the subtle point I was making with the quote above, either that or you are fellow bigot like the very Englishmen you disdain. Saying a small armed force or a few governmental actions somehow represent the entirety of English society and its people, merely because there was a partial aspect of democracy or volunteerism to it, is one of the most dangerous and irresponsible statements I've seen in a long time. That kind of blanket over-generalizing is only a step away from the conceptual groundwork for genocide my dear friend. Every society and people in this world are almost entirely made up of good folk just trying to get by. Just because a few young kids volunteered in some heavy-handed actions made by a 'democratic' (*ahem) government, does not mean blame can be entirely placed on "England" or some vague conceptualization you have of "the English people." The vast majority of 'the English' had nothing to do with the atrocities against the Irish... jack squat in fact .

The Earl seems to resent at a very personal level any critique or questioning of his view on Anglo-Irish relations. His view of Irish history, or myth, is the only view that is acceptable. If you disagree you're an anti-Irish bigot, no matter where you're from.

[Centaur]

You didn't experience the rabid anti-Irish racism in England from "normal" people throughout the 70s, 80s and early 90s, when many English people assumed all Irish poeple were terrorists, both those in GB and those in Irleand.

I'm sorry Ormonde, I can't accept this travesty. "Rabid anti-Irish racism"? Where were the lynchings, the pogroms? Was the Camden Town Irish Centre ever firebombed? Were inhabitants of Kilburn High Road rounded up and interrogated, on suspicion of being Irish, or made to wear green shamrock emblems? Were Irishmen being hunted down, tarred and feathered, and sent back to Dublin with a kick up the backside? I regret that you seem to think that was the zeitgeist of the times, because it simply wasn't so. There were several quite unpleasant IRA terrorist outrages in various parts of England - I'm sure I don't need to go into the details, but quite a few blameless and entirely "normal" people were blown up, killed or mutilated - perhaps with the twisted intention of whipping up just the kind of hysterical backlash you seem to think happened, but it never worked. The police and courts made one or two mistakes, granted, and the Irish were the butt of schoolboy jokes for quite a while, but to characterise anything that happened as "anti-Irish racism" smacks of delusional paranoia.