Is dressing well a dying art?

[Artisan Fan]

I've really noticed that business meetings even at conservative banks are increasingly casual. I break out my suits less and less...is the USA getting to be a sloppy place? Are we losing something by dressing well less?

It's just becoming a less professional environment in places in my opinion.

Am I wrong about this?

What should we do about it? Can we lead by example?

[rip]

I hope, as evidenced by the growth of this forum, that it is a growing, rather than dying, art. Yes, we live in a country that exhilarates in the lowest common denominator, and that tends strongly toward amjack dressing; that aside, I have noticed a resurgence in finely dressed gentlemen.

[Alexander Kabbaz]

I hope, as evidenced by the growth of this forum, that it is a growing, rather than dying, art. Yes, we live in a country that exhilarates in the lowest common denominator, and that tends strongly toward amjack dressing; that aside, I have noticed a resurgence in finely dressed gentlemen.

... +1

[eagle2250]

While I am not sure dressing well can be accurately described as a dying art, as I think there always was and always will be a core of those who just seem to dress well, I also am not convinced dressing well is enjoying a ressurection. Rather, it is more of a seasonal thing...many people who dress well during the cooler/colder months, devolve into classic Amjacks as the weather warms and summer leaps fully upon us.

[mack11211]

Level of formality and amjack and dressing well are three different things.

The trend toward greater informality is long-standing and, I think, unstoppable. Where are the stroller suits and wing-tip collars of yesteryear? Currently, suits are worn in only a fraction of the professions that wore them a generation ago.

Amjack is a way to wear a shirt and pants. I think people will continue to wear shirts with pants, even if the stripes narrow or disappear and the tails get tucked in.

Dressing well is possible at any level of formality.

[silverporsche]

I have come to believe that America has become more and more a country of fads. A country where traditions have become less and less important.
Dress is one of those traditions that has become less important in America.
We can include dress with religion , marriage , respect for women , child rearing , music , reading etc., as dying traditions,

As a Black American I have seen all the above disappear from a once conserative and once proud people Black Americans. White Americans are not far behind.
Many young White males dress as poorly as most young Black males.
To dress traditionally is seen as selling out in most Black communities , is this also true among many White Americans today ?
Hip -hop an anti-social music and life-style is imbraced by by both Black and White young American men.

At this point I cannot see any change in a behaviour that embraces the slums and anti-social behaviour as an example of success.
This forum is not an example of the trend in male clothing. Dressing is fast becoming a dying art in America. Sadly.

[satorstyle]

I have come to believe that America has become more and more a country of fads. A country where traditions have become less and less important.
Dress is one of those traditions that has become less important in America.
We can include dress with religion , marriage , respect for women , child rearing , music , reading etc., as dying traditions,

As a Black American I have seen all the above disappear from a once conservative and once proud people Black Americans. White Americans are not far behind.
Many young White males dress as poorly as most young Black males.
To dress traditionally is seen as selling out in most Black communities , is this also true among many White Americans today ?
Hip -hop an anti-social music and life-style is embraced by by both Black and White young American men.

At this point I cannot see any change in a behavior that embraces the slums and anti-social behavior as an example of success.
This forum is not an example of the trend in male clothing. Dressing is fast becoming a dying art in America. Sadly.

Well stated! As basic positive ideals have slowly diminished, dressing well is just part of the list.

[Soph]

I hope, as evidenced by the growth of this forum, that it is a growing, rather than dying, art. Yes, we live in a country that exhilarates in the lowest common denominator, and that tends strongly toward amjack dressing; that aside, I have noticed a resurgence in finely dressed gentlemen.

+100

What's bad in the US is that some people take great PRIDE in their sloth.

[NewYorkBuck]

I hope, as evidenced by the growth of this forum, that it is a growing, rather than dying, art. Yes, we live in a country that exhilarates in the lowest common denominator, and that tends strongly toward amjack dressing; that aside, I have noticed a resurgence in finely dressed gentlemen.

The further we get away from the late 60s and 70s, the better people will dress.

[forsbergacct2000]

I doubt we will ever see where people dress up in suits every day for work again.

In most companies where I live, you almost have to justify your reasons for wearing a tie on a particular day.

My boss does not mind me dressing up a few days a week, but we only have three men that work here (other than our realtors.) I do not get a lot of "casual" peer pressure. Also, I only own one suit and three sport coats (one is a blazer). After I lose all my weight, I may end up owning more, but I really would have use for only one or two more sport coats. (Two of my sport coats are too heavy for June to August.)

[Trenditional]

I have come to believe that America has become more and more a country of fads. A country where traditions have become less and less important.
Dress is one of those traditions that has become less important in America.
We can include dress with religion , marriage , respect for women , child rearing , music , reading etc., as dying traditions,

As a Black American I have seen all the above disappear from a once conserative and once proud people Black Americans. White Americans are not far behind.
Many young White males dress as poorly as most young Black males.
To dress traditionally is seen as selling out in most Black communities , is this also true among many White Americans today ?
Hip -hop an anti-social music and life-style is imbraced by by both Black and White young American men.

At this point I cannot see any change in a behaviour that embraces the slums and anti-social behaviour as an example of success.
This forum is not an example of the trend in male clothing. Dressing is fast becoming a dying art in America. Sadly.

Silver, you make some very good points. I don't necessarily think dressing well is perceived as selling out by those other than young people. I believe out society has become more accustomed and allowing of dress standards which are more and more casual. I agree with you that many young people don't look at dressing properly as "cool" or necessary and I blame much of that on what they learned was acceptable growing up.

I think for the older crowd (30+) dressing well isn't something we're graded (for no better word) on anymore. I work as a police detective. I don't know about anyone else, but except for the guys working narcotics and having to look like bums, my image of a police detective has always been a suit and tie. This idea of a more casual dress standard is very previlent in my work also. I'm often given a hard time for over dressing.

We've just become a lazier more casual society and the dress standards reflect this.

[Artisan Fan]

Great comments everyone.

I hope, as evidenced by the growth of this forum, that it is a growing, rather than dying, art.

Devil's advocate question: Is that because more people are discovering this great forum or is it because fine dressing is expanding?

[son of brummell]

We've just become a lazier more casual society and the dress standards reflect this.

The detective hit it on the head. Our society is becoming both more casual and lazy.

It's too much of an effort to wear something formal for interaction with the public, clients, customers, vendors, teachers, students, employees, etc. The attitude is "why should I wear a tie and coat? It doesn't affect my performanance. People shouldn't judge me by my clothes."

I call it the "casual cancer."

E.g.,

1. Last Friday, two young and rising architects were profiled in the NY Daily News. They sat for full page portraits in jeans and open shirts. One was unshaven.

2. Sen. Obama usually appears tieless at his rallies. He often is in shirtsleeves. Other political figures go tieless from time to time, such as President Bush, John Edwards, and Al Gore. The only political figure that I can think of who always wears a tie is Mayor Guiliani. (I know a tie wholesaler who has a mini-stroke every time that he sees President Bush without a tie.)

3. Lawyers, those most conservative of professionals, occasionally get photographed sans tie and jacket for the New York Law Journal.

The list goes on and on.

[KenR]

I have come to believe that America has become more and more a country of fads. A country where traditions have become less and less important.
Dress is one of those traditions that has become less important in America.
We can include dress with religion , marriage , respect for women , child rearing , music , reading etc., as dying traditions,

As a Black American I have seen all the above disappear from a once conserative and once proud people Black Americans. White Americans are not far behind.
Many young White males dress as poorly as most young Black males.
To dress traditionally is seen as selling out in most Black communities , is this also true among many White Americans today ?
Hip -hop an anti-social music and life-style is imbraced by by both Black and White young American men.

At this point I cannot see any change in a behaviour that embraces the slums and anti-social behaviour as an example of success.
This forum is not an example of the trend in male clothing. Dressing is fast becoming a dying art in America. Sadly.

No, for white Americans selling out does not enter into it. It is just seen as old schoolish and not trendy.

My company will soon be merging with one that is casual. They say they are dress casual but I've seen too many god-awful slobs working there. I still plan on wearing a suit as much as possible and will not put up with any pressure to change. People that know me know better than to try that.

[DougNZ]

I've always pared it down to one word: "respect". We just don't respect each other anymore. Hell, half the population doesn't even respect themselves.

Why dress well when one cares neither for one's appearance nor the experience of others?

[Artisan Fan]

E.g.,

1. Last Friday, two young and rising architects were profiled in the NY Daily News. They sat for full page portraits in jeans and open shirts. One was unshaven.

2. Sen. Obama usually appears tieless at his rallies. Other political figures go tieless from time to time, such as President Bush, John Edwards, and Al Gore. The only political figure that I can think of who always wears a tie is Mayor Guiliani. (I know a tie wholesaler who has a mini-stroke every time that he sees President Bush without a tie.)

3. Lawyers, those most conservative of professionals, occasionally get photographed sans tie and jacket for the New York Law Journal.

The list goes on and on.

Great observations Mark as usual. I remember the technology section of our local business chronical carrying profiles of tech startups. Heaven forbid one where a tie to those photo sessions.

[ykurtz]

Style, like anything else that requires effort to maintain, is subject to entropy. A long time ago, well educated people read Homer in the original Greek. Then they read translations. Then a few people who cared about the classics read him. Now its: oh, I didn't know Bart's father wrote a book?

Beau Brummell stole the fire of style from the gods of fashion to make it more accessible to the masses. Perhaps this has continued in a lesser fashion with the continued democratization of the 'lounge suit' since then, and again with 'business casual.'

It takes effort to appear confidently stylish, and we can argue that many people simply do not wish to expend the necessary effort to do so.

However, it is actually quite nice to be an exception, and not the rule. I think stylish people are the exception, and my question to those people is: why try to make it into a rule?

I think dressing appropriately and stylishly confers numerous tangible and intangible benefits. I don't feel bad when the guy in Dockers and a Tommy Bahama shirt gets passed over by the guy in a stylish suit, who has a more serious mind, works harder, etc. Effort deserves to be rewarded.

And I believe, for the things that really matter, effort is still rewarded today.

[Will]

I've really noticed that business meetings even at conservative banks are increasingly casual. I break out my suits less and less...is the USA getting to be a sloppy place? Are we losing something by dressing well less?

It's just becoming a less professional environment in places in my opinion.

Am I wrong about this?

What should we do about it? Can we lead by example?

If you're breaking out your suits less and less can you be part of the solution?

[Artisan Fan]

If you're breaking out your suits less and less can you be part of the solution?

Well I can dress better and do it more often.

[bonkboocat]

In my profession, finance, I do see more suits than I did when the business first became biz casual. At my current employer, biz casual is more dominant than at competitors. I've gradually started to wear more and more suits to the point where I do so everyday. For two reasons. Since my business is one of supplying professional services to a client, I think I should appear as a professional. Also, I started buying suits again on a fateful visit to Saks during some unexpectedly quite Christmas shopping day and a Corneliani on sale beckoned me like a siren. I fell (and it was a GREAT deal). I hadn't bought suits in years and had lost about 40 pounds. The new suits created a commitment to keeping the weight off. So that's the other reason I wear suits. It reminds me of my weight. And because of this forum I've ended up with about 12 suits and need to wear them everyday or they'll never get use. Not to mention the shirts, ties, and shoes.

[Brian13]

The further we get away from the late 60s and 70s, the better people will dress.

actually i think the 60s and 70s, although awful fashion, they had a distinct style and intent behind the wears. they dressed a certain way to make a statement, whatever statement that was: peace, war, disco, etc.

today, people are apathetic. complacent.
clothing is just a means to an end.
is just soemthing they perfunctorily throw on to prevent getting arrested when they walk into the street.
the bare minimum. heck ,at my work , people wear sandals with their jeans. dammit.

[somethingsilly]

Oh, cheer up, anyone with a basic understanding of Aristotlean logic knows that the crass vulgarity of the present is merely paving the way -- by provoking, in its action, a reaction - for a return - in strength - of its antipodal tendency (that being towards class, culture and elegance), as the antithesis to negate the existent thesis.

Just you pray that the inevitable synthesis doesn't mean this:

horrors

[KenR]

In my profession, finance, I do see more suits than I did when the business first became biz casual. At my current employer, biz casual is more dominant than at competitors. I've gradually started to wear more and more suits to the point where I do so everyday. For two reasons. Since my business is one of supplying professional services to a client, I think I should appear as a professional. Also, I started buying suits again on a fateful visit to Saks during some unexpectedly quite Christmas shopping day and a Corneliani on sale beckoned me like a siren. I fell (and it was a GREAT deal). I hadn't bought suits in years and had lost about 40 pounds. The new suits created a commitment to keeping the weight off. So that's the other reason I wear suits. It reminds me of my weight. And because of this forum I've ended up with about 12 suits and need to wear them everyday or they'll never get use. Not to mention the shirts, ties, and shoes.

Well allllll riiiight!

[jsherman02]

I am in sales and I would say that 95% of my clients do not dress up at all. I have recently taken a different approach and have traded in the suits for sportcoats and pants. I still wear ties and now include pocket squares more often.

I seem to "fit in" more now which is good for someone in sales. I used to feel a bit overdressed, and looked better than most of my client's CEO!

It is sad, but I have friends who make seven figures and own maybe two suits.

My problem is casusal attire for the weekend! Everyone seems to wear jeans and t shirts!

[Cravate Noire]

Great comments everyone.



Devil's advocate question: Is that because more people are discovering this great forum or is it because fine dressing is expanding?

With me it was the first!
Actually there doesn't exist a German-speaking forum like AAAC and I think it won't come into existence for the next few decades...I think I mentioned the sartorial poorness from that we suffer a few times, I hope the USA won't develop that way!