The Last Gentleman

[gtguyzach]

I've been reading Walker Percy's The Last Gentleman at the recommendation of a friend (he's a UNC grad but I try not to hold it against him, I've known him since kindergarten and he's one that got me to read A Confederacy of Dunces). Anyway, I was reading a little this morning between classes and I came across this paragraph:

"During the next week he set about putting his life in order. He ate and slept regularly, worked out every day, went down to Brooks Brothers like his father and grandfather before him and bought two ten-dollar pullover shirts with a tuck in the back and no pocket in the front, socks, ties, and underwear, and dressed like a proper Princetonian."

The main character (who is referenced in the paragraph above) is a troubled young man from Alabama that spent two years at Princeton (following a family tradition) before ending up in New York City where the book begins.

Two things stood out to me about this. First, are the "pullover shirts" referred to the same as the ones mentioned in a recent thread? Also, does anyone know how prevalent they were? The book is copyright 1966 so it can be assumed that the main character would have been at Princeton in the early 1960s.

The other thing that came to mind was the possible origin of Southern trad. I know that this has been debated before, about how a Northeastern Ivy-league style made its way south of the Mason-Dixon line. Going to Princeton was a family tradition in this novel, I wonder how many old Southern families had an Ivy League tradition? Could this be where Southern Trad came from? Fathers bring their Ivy League style from school back to home and pass it on to their family and it spreads from their. The Southern schools pick it up from imitation of the Ivy League and from the influence of those old families (like if someone with an Ivy League background is hired to run a local school).

Any thoughts? My only problem with this theory is the short period of time for the style of dress to populate so there have to be some Southern culture factors as well and I suppose this is where the differences come into play. This idea really made sense to me though while reading.

I'm also really curious about the shirts.

Thanks for listening to my ramblings and check out Walker Percy is you get a chance.

[OldSkoolFrat]

The other thing that came to mind was the possible origin of Southern trad. I know that this has been debated before, about how a Northeastern Ivy-league style made its way south of the Mason-Dixon line. Going to Princeton was a family tradition in this novel, I wonder how many old Southern families had an Ivy League tradition? Could this be where Southern Trad came from? Fathers bring their Ivy League style from school back to home and pass it on to their family and it spreads from their. The Southern schools pick it up from imitation of the Ivy League and from the influence of those old families (like if someone with an Ivy League background is hired to run a local school).

Son, we have been TRAD for many generations, and it didn't take no Yankee to teach us how to wear white bucks, poplin suits, seersucker, bow ties, patch madras, natural shoulder Blazers and Panama straw hats.

I do declare, and fiddle-dee-dee, you Yankees must think we all wore tow-sacks and ate horse plops before the RFD man delivered the first BB catalogue to some inbreds in Atlanta by mistake.

"Are you baking more wine, mother?"

Prolly Polo Shirts.

[A.Squire]

Son, we have been TRAD for many generations, and it didn't take no Yankee to teach us how to wear white bucks, poplin suits, seersucker, bow ties, patch madras, natural shoulder Blazers and Panama straw hats.

I do declare, and fiddle-dee-dee, you Yankees must think we all wore tow-sacks and ate horse plops before the RFD man delivered the first BB catalogue to some inbreds in Atlanta by mistake.

"Are you baking more wine, mother?"

Prolly Polo Shirts.

Now that's funny, all of it...I'm reminded how thankful I am that I didn't tell you in effect to BLEEP off. You really nailed the southern speak.

*what's with the quote though?

[OldSkoolFrat]

I daresay that gtguyzach knows where the quote is from. I'll let him do the honors of explaining it to us.

And thank you, for stoppin' by. Ya'll will pardon me while I goes out to the back 40 an' fetch me a mess 'uh poke salad greens fer ma dinner. Ah' might have to set a spell wiff ma' 22 and see if I cain't git me a squirel to fix wiff some aeggs fer ma' breakfast.

Should I wear my LL Bean Gum-Shoe boots? Fer the pick'in an' a shoot'in?

[LongWing]

Zach,

My only intimate experience with Southern Trad is New Orleans Trad, which is not the same thing as Tennessee Trad or Virginia Trad, and certainly not Texas Trad. Southern Miss and South Alabama are much like New Orleans - and this area (Feliciana I believe it is called) is Walker Percy country. Anyway, I would agree with your hypothesis that at least that part of Southern Trad is heavily Ivy influenced. I can't speak for those good old boys from nearer the Mason-Dixon line. I would be interested in Foghorn's opinion on this subject though.

[GMC]

Almost certain.

Walker Percy's "Moviegoer" is tremendous, btw.

[LongWing]

Almost certain.

The pre-Izod Lacost shirts had a much longer tail than the current offerings. But that was before showing off one's underwear was cool.

[gtguyzach]

I daresay that gtguyzach knows where the quote is from. I'll let him do the honors of explaining it to us.

I'm afraid I've presented as more well read than I actually am. I am but a humble engineer. However if I thought I could have lived above the poverty line with only a bachelor's degree, I would have certainly pursued a degree in history instead.

However I am most certain that is a quote from A Confederacy of Dunces by John Kennedy Toole (unfortunately my copy is not with me, I think I lent it out to someone who has yet to return it). Ignatius J. Reilly's mother hid her wine supply in the oven so he would not find out about her drinking with her new friends. Ignatius discovered her hidden supply and became further convinced she was a raving drunk, thus the quote. It has been awhile since I read it though so please excuse any mistakes in my recap or if I am on the wrong track entirely.

A polo shirt, is that it? Well dern. I was hoping for some type of epiphany that would tie this thread into the old "popover shirt" one.

[OldSkoolFrat]

Give that man a cigar! Spot on with the quote. Cigar can be arranged if you really are a GaTech grad student.

"Is you a communis?"

In the South, we like to think that we inventened the "gray flannel suit." 1861-65. It ain't just fashion, ya'll.

[septa]

In the South, we like to think that we inventened the "gray flannel suit." 1861-65. It ain't just fashion, ya'll.

Now that is funny.

[Desk Jockey]

Almost certain.

Walker Percy's "Moviegoer" is tremendous, btw.

The pre-Izod Lacost shirts had a much longer tail than the current offerings. But that was before showing off one's underwear was cool.

And have you distinguished gentlemen ever seen a polo shirt with a box pleat between the shoulder blades?

My money's on it being the same as the one in the thread that he linked to. Mind you, you all mean a "polo" as in a collar on a oxford shirt, then that makes this underpaid and over-tired staffer look a fool.

[knickerbacker]

Almost certain.

Don't be too certain- I had BB and Press OCBD's longsleeve shirts that were pullover (or "popover") that were hand me downs worn as recently as '81. Press made them later than BB and my Dad and I agreed that they were the cat's meow, but were then unavailable. They were slightly different than the CCC foghorn enquired about in the afore mentioned other thread. As I recall (that's a phrase which often means " I could be hallucinating or feeble minded") they were sized by neck and sleeve length and outside of having a one piece front placket below the waist, were identical to today's ocbd except, of course, better as was everything in those bygone days except medicine and brakes (can you tell I read "the Once and Future King" again as a holiday reading?). The shirts were also available in point collar.

[Jim In Sunny So Calif]

Two things stood out to me about this. First, are the "pullover shirts" referred to the same as the ones mentioned in a recent thread? Also, does anyone know how prevalent they were? The book is copyright 1966 so it can be assumed that the main character would have been at Princeton in the early 1960s.

This sounds like a short sleeved, button down collar, box pleat in the center back, shirt with a placket about half way down the front and 'solid' below the placket.

I had a number of them in the 50's and 60's in both the traditional OCBD colors and some with patterns. Then I couldn't find any until about Hmm.. perhaps 1980 in Oxford cloth.

With one exception I did not shop at Brooks Bros. in those days but these shirts were available from stores that sold traditional styled men's clothing. I don't think there is such a store in California anymore except perhaps up in San Francisco.

My one purchase from Brooks Bros. back in the early 60's was a white OCBD which fit like a tent and was rather expensive - I think it was $9.50 but I can't remember if that included the extra $1.00 for a pocket or not.

I now buy shirts and pajamas from BB, usually once a year when they have their biggest sale. Thankfully, they sell over the Net as the service in the So Cal stores has always been rather dismal.

The only source for those 'pullover shirts' that I know of now is David Mercer and I believe he calls them 'popover'.

Cheers, Jim.

[PJC in NoVa]

Give that man a cigar! Spot on with the quote. Cigar can be arranged if you really are a GaTech grad student.

"Is you a communis?"

In the South, we like to think that we inventened the "gray flannel suit." 1861-65. It ain't just fashion, ya'll.

Sorry, but you appear to have borrowed it from a certain military academy in New York State: The uniforms of the CSA were West Point "cadet" gray, a shade still worn today on the plains above the Hudson (where so many Confederate generals went to school). The original basis for the unis, shakoes and all, was the uniform worn by U.S. Army infantry in the War of 1812.

[septa]

Sorry, but you appear to have borrowed it from a certain military academy in New York State: The uniforms of the CSA were West Point "cadet" gray, a shade still worn today on the plains above the Hudson (where so many Confederate generals went to school). The original basis for the unis, shakoes and all, was the uniform worn by U.S. Army infantry in the War of 1812.

As a former member of the Black Knights of the Hudson Mighty Mites (U8) Travelling Hockey team, I do agree with you, although, must say that OSF's comment was pretty funny.

[PJC in NoVa]

Going to Princeton was a family tradition in this novel, I wonder how many old Southern families had an Ivy League tradition?

You're on to something. Princeton, which is geographically the second-most southern of the Ivies (Penn in Philly is farther down toward the Mason-Dixon) was and to a degree still is the Ivy with the most Southern ties.

F. Scott Fitzgerald (full name Francis Scott Key Fitzgerald) came from old Maryland Catholic stock on his father's side and going to Princeton was a big deal in his family. His "Basil Duke Lee" stories, about an alter ego of FSF's growing up in the Midwest (FSF hailed from the Twin Cities) have some amusing passages about the hero's desire to escape the dire fate of having to attend the local state university and his dreams of going to a certain Ivy back East instead.

The Brookes of Maryland also have Princeton ties. I knew an old Montgomery County gentleman named Brooke Johns (as in Johns Hopkins--it's a family name, not a misspelling of "John" or a printer's mistake) who had dropped out of Princeton in the 20s in order to go into show biz, thereby scandalizing his very proper horse-farming family but giving him fascinating anecdotes about having rubbed elbows in New York with the likes of Ernest Hemingway, Josephine Baker, and the aforenamed F. Scott. Brooke Shields, if I'm not mistaken, is somehow related to a branch of the larger Brooke family (hence her name) as well and went to Princeton also in part out of family tradition. Other famous Maryland Brookes include Roger Brooke Taney, the Chief Justice who wrote the Dred Scott opinion.

Another Brooke (from what I believe was a Quaker rather than a Catholic branch of the family) founded the town of Brookeville in upper Montgomery County. A friend of James Madison (another sprig of the Southern gentry with a Princeton background--he had two degrees from the place) was named by him to the office of US postmaster in Brookeville. When the British chased Madison out of Washington in the summer of 1814, the President sought refuge at his friend's home. Today, it's a private residence but there's a historical marker and people still visit. Last I heard the teenage daughter of the family that owns it was living in the bedroom that was once the "away White House."

I have a friend from an old South Carolina family who went to Princeton like about 4 or 5 generations of men in his family before him. He even joined the same eating club (Colonial) as all his forebears.

[OldSkoolFrat]

Them boys what torched my town wore blue, Yankee.

Ever been to camp? ever toasted a marshmallow? Ever set one on fire, blow it out and eaten it?

Down here, we still call that, to "Shermanize" it.

[GMC]

Don't be too certain- I had BB and Press

When I read the description of the shirts as having a longer tail in back, I just naturally assumed it was a polo. I've seen a remake of the old popovers -- Brooks' flagship offered a batch of "from our history" editions a couple of years back -- and the tailers were just like other Brooks shirts: same length in front and back. But who the heck knows if that's the way popovers really used to be made.

[eagle2250]

Them boys what torched my town wore blue, Yankee.

Ever been to camp? ever toasted a marshmallow? Ever set one on fire, blow it out and eaten it?

Down here, we still call that, to "Shermanize" it.

LOL! OldSkoolFrat, you could put together quite a stand-up comedic routine on this if you put your mind to it. Now, if y'all excuse me I've got to drop off and go "Shermanize" some marshmallows with the grandkids. Again, really great material!

[gtguyzach]

Give that man a cigar! Spot on with the quote. Cigar can be arranged if you really are a GaTech grad student.

Close, 5th year senior not a grad student, but still a proud Ramblin' Wreck from Georgia Tech. I have not had a good cigar in some time so if you are serious I would definitely take you up on the offer.

PJC:

Thanks for information about Fitzgerald and the Brookes family. It is interesting to learn that the Princeton connection is somewhat based in fact. The valedictorian of my high school in North Carolina went to Princeton (no family tradition there, his Dad went to Duke), but it seems like Princeton is the Ivy League that Southerners feel closest too. Sure Penn is closer but for some reason I think much more highly of Princeton than I do of Penn. No real reason behind this just my own developed bias I suppose. Perhaps this is all just in my head.

[Rocker]

I believe I remember reading that my undgrad school in Virginia, W&L f/k/a Washington college f/k/a Liberty Hall Academy f/k/a Augusta Academy was set up by a bunch of Presbyterians and it used to send up quite a few of its students to Princeton f/k/a College of New Jersey for theological/seminary training (back when it was Presbyterian affiliated) - largely in the 1700s and early 1800s.

Robert E. Lee, on the other hand, was a bit of a Harvard man - he did not attend for financial reasons but, his older brother went there and he sent at least one son there. His father, Light Horse-Harry Lee went to Princeton - but he was a dissolute and maybe that veered Robert to favor Harvard.

[Beresford]

You're on to something. Princeton, which is geographically the second-most southern of the Ivies (Penn in Philly is farther down toward the Mason-Dixon) was and to a degree still is the Ivy with the most Southern ties.

A major reason for this is that Princeton is the only Ivy with a Presbyterian background. Many Presbyterians (read "Scots-Irish") settled in the Southern states. A number of the other Ivies were started by Puritans/Congregationalists/Unitarians (read "Damn Yankees"). Brown was Baptist, but the wrong kind of Baptist (read, "Damn Yankees"). Columbia was Episcopal, but there were just as good Episcopal colleges in Virginia and further South.