Dukes of the United Kingdom (photos)...

[Henry]

Interestingly, the Barony of Egremont is the one that is used first, despite the Leconfield title being older and (thus) grander. I assume that's a convention since later titles tend to upgrade the holder (eg from Earl to Marquess, etc).

I read a very funny book by first Lord Egremont, a slightly irreverant autobiography called "Wyndham and children first!" - his surname is Wyndham.

I believe the current Baron is my 4th cousin (!)

[Joe Frances]

I'm getting to Norfolk, got a bunch of photos of him young and old. Makes the "Windsor" family look like Johnny-come-latelys...which I suppose they are. Apparently the Queen has never met most of the dukes, despite the fact they are the premier blue-bloods in her realm.

I don't understand how the Monarch doesn't personally know the senior member of the aristocracy. Is it because he is Catholic? Doesn't the queen see him at Parliament opening ceremonies? I mean, isn't Norfold "Blackrod" who has a major role in the proceedings?

Joe

[DougNZ]

Norfolk is Earl Marshall and therefore the 'project manager' of any state occasion. In addition he is the lieutenant of the sovereign in all matters heraldic. I cannot believe that Her Majesty has not met the Earl Marshall being that he acts in her name in so many matters.

[Doctor Damage]

I never posted that she hadn't met Norfolk, indeed his state role is so important that she will have met him on many occasions. I was simply repeating an anecdote that she hadn't met most of the dukes, which is believable as indeed most of the aristocracy has nothing to do with royalty.

[Doctor Damage]

Duke of Norfolk: this is the premier dukedom and this man has a hereditary post at the state opening of parliament.

Henry Fitzalan-Howard, 15th Duke of Norfolk. This photo was taken in 1914, but I am not sure which man is the duke.



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Bernard Fitzalan-Howard, the 16th duke. He apparently had four daughters, and so the dukedom passed to the 17th duke, his cousin.





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Miles Stapleton-Fitzalan-Howard, 17th Duke of Norfolk, who served in WWII and became a Major-General, earning the MC.











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His son, Edward Fitzalan-Howard, the 18th Duke (the current duke) undertaking his official duties at the state opening of parliament. He is wearing red and is seen on the left in both photos.

[Literide]

"With one or two notable rare exceptions. For example, there is a peer whose Seat is in Petworth, West Sussex, who, by custom and tradition, is always styled Lord Leconfield but is actually of as higher rank. There's at least one other in this situation too IIRC. Leconfield also publishes novels under his 'commoners' name."

He is indeed a Baron - his family were once Earls, but that died out. Nevetheless, calling anyone from a Marquess downwards a Lord X is correct - eg Lord Anglesey, for the Marquess of Angelesey. Indeed, if one were addressing him personally, Lord Angelesey would be the correct formulation.

As mentioned above, a Duke is the exception.

ps Michael Ancram not only styles himself a commoner, he uses also takes his surname from his courtesy Earldom, despite having now inherited a Marquessate (his surname is Kerr, he is the Earl of Ancram and the Marquess of Lothian) - that said, he has been criticised for this. I get the impression the decision was work based - like a female professional keeping her maiden name on marriage.

Why wouldnt he simply have used his surname "Kerr" throughout his business career rather than adopting his courtesy title as a surname, knowing it would change when he inherited the sr title?

In other such oddities, I recall Prince Andrew's (current Duke of York) military uniforms reading "Prince Andrew" where other had their surname. Prince Harry's say "Wales" as if it were a surname and not his fathers current title. Why would'nt it be simpy "Windsor" in either case?

EDIT: Wouldnt the men of Windsor, at least Elizabeth II's sons and their grandsons be Mountbattens?? Mountbatten-Windsor??

[Wayfarer]

Excellent stuff DD, I think we all owe you a thanks for this thread.

[Henry]

Why wouldnt he simply have used his surname "Kerr" throughout his business career rather than adopting his courtesy title as a surname, knowing it would change when he inherited the sr title?

In other such oddities, I recall Prince Andrew's (current Duke of York) military uniforms reading "Prince Andrew" where other had their surname. Prince Harry's say "Wales" as if it were a surname and not his fathers current title. Why would'nt it be simpy "Windsor" in either case?

The short answer to that is that he entered the House of Commons as the Earl of Ancram. It is common practice to use one's title as a surname. He could not have known he would still be in the House of Commons as a Marquess, since at that time he would have been moved to the House of Lords upon inheriting (unless he disowned his peerage, cf Viscounts Stansgate and Hailsham, the Earl of Home). Labour's decision to remove the automatic right of hereditary peers to sit in the House of Lords put paid to that.

The longer answer is a little more complex. It has been customary to take one's title as one's 'surname' - to reject the use of a courtesy title would be rude both to one's father and one's family.

Traditionally, the idea of needing one name for work was less of an issue - quite simply, the eldest son would not need to work.

In the past, titles really had a life of their own. You were defined by your title, not the other way around. The fact that your father had died was irrelevant, as you immediately stepped into his role - a case of "the King is dead, long live the King". The head of the family's role was narrow enough - tending the family seat(s) and surrounding estate(s), acting as an ambassador for the area - that the succession could be seamless.

The changing of names as time went on was not a problem - indeed, a tangible change which marked your progression towards taking on the title were a good thing, a way of reminding one of duties that went with it.

Just my thoughts on the issue...

ps the Princes tend not to use their titles for reasons of convenience and fitting in. Bear in mind that it is their title too, so they have as much right to use it as anyone with a courtesy title. They did the same at school.

[Monte Cristo]

The following photos were taken by Allan Warren, I wish I had larger versions to post, as these are superb. (It's a bit odd to see a Brit wearing penny loafers with white socks!)

Even odder that the penny loafers with white socks on a Brit is the breast pocket on the right side of the jacket. Does anyone know if this is supposed to signify anything (e.g. would a lefty want the pocket on the right side)?

[Trimmer]

The image is reversed. Look at the house -



the conservatory at Stratfield is on the other side in reality.


Trimmer

[Joe Frances]

DD:

I would llike to echo Wayfarer and thank you and commend you for this excellent thread. One of the most interesting I have seen in a very long time. Hope you have a very Merry Christmas.

Joe

[Doctor Damage]

8th Duke of Leinster (Gerald Fitzgerald). These are Irish dukes, once considered premier in Ireland, have now become rather anonymous, including having sold the family pile and losing all their money by the early 20th century.



Can't locate any photos of the current duke.

[Henry]

No pics of the 9th Duke, but here's a picture of one of the pretenders...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...27/nlein27.xml

ps I don't mean to be rude, but the first picture of the 8th Duke looks amazingly American - it's probably the good teeth!

[Doctor Damage]

James Graham, 6th Duke of Montrose. Here he is helping to plant a tree in 1947 and attending the fourth Scottish Assembly in 1950. That's him in the kilt.





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James Angus Graham, 7th Duke of Montrose, a Scottish duke. He lived in South Africa for a long time, and was in the Rhodesian government (as a minister) when it became independent.



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James Graham, 8th Duke of Montrose, the current duke.





The following photos show him at a Graham clan gathering.

[DukeGrad]

Gentlemen,

I have enjoyed this forum immensely. Thank you. Very interesting.
Nice day

[Doctor Damage]

Gerald Cavendish Grosvenor, current Duke of Westminster (6th). One of the UK's richest men (must be nice to own parts of downtown London...approximately 300 acres in Mayfair and Belgravia, according to Wikipedia).

[Trimmer]

Gerald Cavendish Grosvenor, current Duke of Westminster (6th). One of the UK's richest men (must be nice to own parts of downtown London...approximately 300 acres in Mayfair and Belgravia, according to Wikipedia).

This includes the land on which the US Embassy stands. It is said the Duke offered to exchange the freehold for property his family held in America before the War of Independence. This apparently included Cape Canaveral. The US govenment declined.

Trimmer

[Beresford]

This includes the land on which the US Embassy stands. It is said the Duke offered to exchange the freehold for property his family held in America before the War of Independence. This apparently included Cape Canaveral. The US govenment declined.

Trimmer

The family also owned a block in downtown Honolulu's financial district on which they constructed two 30-story office towers known as "Grosvenor Centre." They had their offices in the first tower constructed, and when the elevator opened on their floor you could see the family coat of arms carved on a large wooden panel wall behind the receptionist. Like something out of an English manor house. Quite Impressive. They have since sold the property to others. (Present owner is Guardian Life Insurance.)

[Henry]

Duke of W is my father's second cousin. Several interesting things about him: he's the richest British person in Britain (ie discounting Lakshmi Mittal and Roman Abramovich), is v senior in the Territorial Army and both he and his son have (in different eras) had trials for top level football sides.

[Blackadder]

This includes the land on which the US Embassy stands. It is said the Duke offered to exchange the freehold for property his family held in America before the War of Independence. This apparently included Cape Canaveral. The US govenment declined.

Trimmer

It was my understanding that it was the entire state of Florida. It is the only US embassy the grounds of which are not owned by the United States.

[Doctor Damage]

Victor Christian William Cavendish, 9th Duke of Devonshire, and a Governor-General of Canada.



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Edward William Spencer Cavendish, 10th Duke of Devonshire. He was an MP and a minister in Churchill's government.



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Andrew Cavendish, 11th Duke of Devonshire. This one was a minister in MacMillan's government. To help defray immense death duties, he opened the family house, Chatsworth House, to the public, back before this was common. He married one of the Mitford sisters, which were celebrated beauties of their time.





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Peregrine Cavendish, 12th Duke of Devonshire, son of the 11th duke.

[english_gent]

i wouldnt hesitate one moment putting these leeches against the wall in front of a firing squad !

[Henry]

Leeches?

[english_gent]

Leeches?

you cant wealthy unless you rip someone off!

[Doctor Damage]

you cant wealthy unless you rip someone off!

Ho ho, that would be the noveau riche of which you are thinking. The folks posted above have family fortunes which stretch back centuries in some cases. Some of them have lost everything too, or almost everything. Many of them are quite ordinary people too, in real life; remember, they don't have all the claptrap surrounding their lives that the royal family does, hence they are less likely to develop bizarre notions of entitlement, arrogance, etc.

But that's just what I've read -- I don't know any of these men.