Should Allen Edmonds go back to the steel shank?

[g.michael]

I’m not sure when AE switched to a fiberglass shank in its shoes, but I for one think it is time they returned to using steel.

I was shoe shopping this past weekend and looked at Alden, AE and the Polo Darlton. At the end of the day I was struck by two things—one was the strange feeling of holding an AE MacNeil, Strand, and Leeds in my hand, and noticing how light they felt compared to the Alden and Darlton. I know we are only talking ounces here, but the perception caused by the heft of the shoe is unmistakable. If I pay $300 for a shoe, I want it to have some heft to it. I’m not running a marathon in it so it’s absolutely alright for it to weigh more than a tennis shoe. I live and work in suburbia so I don’t do a ton of walking in these—those of you who do may disagree about the weight.

A corollary to this point is the Alden salesman I ran into when I mentioned my size in Allen Edmonds. Without any provocation he began bemoaning AE—“We stopped carrying AE several years ago. They’re just not made that well anymore, they don’t even use a steel shank.” Yes, he is trying to sell Aldens and I know that a fiberglass shank can be just as sturdy as steel, but perception certainly helps sell product—Coke vs. Pepsi anyone?

Secondly, thanks to the @#!%$ terrorists, no shoes are “airport friendly” anymore, which I know was a selling point of J&M when they switched to a fiberglass shank. Although with metal detectors at courthouses, federal buildings, etc (yes, even middle schools—God help us) I understand that it is still a selling point.

I can’t imagine cost being an issue here—there must only be a difference of pennies between a piece of stamped metal and fiberglass.

I like my old shell MacNeils from the early 90’s. They’re comfortable, fit great, and have the “heft” of a steel shank (at least I think they have a steel shank!). Does anyone know if AE switches out the old shank for a new fiberglass one when you get your shoes recrafted?

I say, bring back the steel shank to AE. Your thoughts?

[joenobody0]

[FONT=Calibri]

I was shoe shopping this past weekend and looked at Alden, AE and the Polo Darlton. At the end of the day I was struck by two things—one was the strange feeling of holding an AE MacNeil, Strand, and Leeds in my hand, and noticing how light they felt compared to the Alden and Darlton. I know we are only talking ounces here, but the perception caused by the heft of the shoe is unmistakable. If I pay $300 for a shoe, I want it to have some heft to it.

Have you ever tried on a pair of nicer English shoes? A pair of John Lobbs is much much lighter than a pair of Aldens. This lack of weight provides a major increase in comfort.

AE should stick with what they're doing - fiberglass shank or not they're never going to provide exactly the same shoe experience as Alden.

[eagle2250]

Allen Edmond's used steel shanks in the crafting of their shoes(!)? I've been buying AE's for quite a few years and I never realized that! I think that they have always used fiberglass shanks. Does anyone know for sure?

[GoToEleven]

Allen Edmond's used steel shanks in the crafting of their shoes(!)? I've been buying AE's for quite a few years and I never realized that! I think that they have always used fiberglass shanks. Does anyone know for sure?

My first AE's, a pair of black Byrons, had a sticker the box that said something like "Fly through the airport", indicating that it did not have a steel shank. This led me to believe that most, if not all, of its predecessors did have one.

-- GTE

[harvey_birdman]

The comparative "weight" of these shoes is a non issue. I'm reminded of that scene in Snatch, where Boris the Bullet Dodger is telling Tommy that a heavy pistol is good, because if it fails to fire you can always hit the person with it.

I have a pair of AE MacNeils in Shell and one of the Alden Wingtips in Shell and I do not know of any significant difference in weight. They are both quality shoes.

[Leighton]

I wasn't even aware AE's had shanks. I thought this post was about putting in a steel shank for 270 degree welt construction for a sleeker heel.

[statboy]

Like Leighton, I don't believe I've heard that AE uses shanks. They use a layer of cork between the insole and outsole. You should watch the video they have about recrafting, they show the whole process. I don't recall seeing a shank inserted, fiberglass or otherwise. Maybe the cork is part fiberglass?

[WouldaShoulda]

Whenever my shoes are feeling too insubstantial, I just tie a few lead fishing weights to them!!

[Racer]

I wasn't even aware AE's had shanks.

They don't. Allen Edmonds got its start because the founder figured out how to make dress shoes without a shank.

[Epaminondas]

They don't. Allen Edmonds got its start because the founder figured out how to make dress shoes without a shank.

Exactly, that's always been my understanding as well - they's why they have the 360 degree stitched welt as well and their older advertising led me to believe they never have used a shank - either metal or fiberglass.

In any case, to the OP's point, a steel shank adds probably an ounce to a pair of shoes so, it's not material either way in terms of heft. I'd be more concerned with durability than with heft. And assuming equal durability and aestheics, I'd opt for the lighter shoe.

[Flanderian]

They don't. Allen Edmonds got its start because the founder figured out how to make dress shoes without a shank.

That explains a lot.

Anyone for wood shanks? Think I recall reading Weston used beech shanks. Would think ash would serve well too.

[bd79cc]

Wood's not the best shank material. It can split. The warm moist environment inside a shoe degrades it, and robs it of its strength and toughness. Stick with galvanized steel or structural fiberglass. Both are perfect for shoe shanks.

[DocD]

I don't believe AE utilizes shanks in their products. There are advantages and disadvantages to the use of shanks and in particular metal shanks in shoes. Some people may find that a shank causes too much rigidity in a shoe, and for those who wear orthoses, a shank can actually "compete" with a custom orthoses and cause too much control.

There are those who can tolerate the use of an orthosis (aka orthotic) in a shoe with a metal shank, but that's usually the exception, not the rule. Shoes that don't have shanks are usually much better tolerated by those who also need to wear a custom orthoses.

[cobblestone]

I have been repairing Allen Edmonds for over 30 years. Never have I seen any kind of shank inside their shoes. They use a fiber heel tuck to hold the threaded nails used to secure the heel base. It offers no support at all. They rely on the 360 degree welting and a full leather sole for their support. Good enough for some, not good enough for others.

[AllenEdmondsCEO]

Thanks for this question. Interesting thread of responses. Racer is correct above: Allen Edmonds revolutionized shoemaking in the 1920s (founded in 1922) by not using any shank at all. We still don't put shanks in the vast majority of our shoes. We have been using a fiberglass shank for a year in our new Executive Collection shoes (the only ones with a shank). They're made in a 270 welted construction (i.e. the welt is sewn only from the front of the heel, around the front of the shoe past the toe and back to the front of the heel on the other side). 270 construction historically has allowed Italians and others to have a tighter heel in the back which, on sleaker/narrower-toed shoes especially, adds a certain stylish look. The Executives were the first time we had done 270s and, frankly, I drove that move in order to have some new looks. Without the 360 welt construction to hold the entire shoe together, the shank plays the role of keeping heel and arch from separating over time, coming apart in the middle. When manufacturers used steel shanks, the shoes were especially tough to break in, which gave AE its first big claim to fame (out of the box flexibility and comfort). All of our Timeless Classics and other shoes that have been around for more than a year are 360 welts with no shank at all. We've recently engineered even our Executive Collection and other tight heel shoes as 360s, so as to avoid the shank altogether. The heel is just as tight and stylish, but the 360 construction - at least we still believe - is more comfortable more quickly, more stable over time and therefore likely to last longer.

As you might imagine, we pay close attention to the market and what our esteemed competitors are doing. I've never noticed much difference in weight between welted shoes of similar materials, whether 270s or 360s. Cordovan shoes weigh perceptibly more than calfskin, though, and the sole used with cordovan shoes is similarly a bit heavier. Otherwise, I don't know why you'd notice a different heft. In any event, shoes fashions are going heavier and more substantial these days, with heavier leathers, thicker soles and more lug soles. You'll see more of those styles, including boots, from us in 2011.

Be well,
Paul

[billacorn]

AllenEdmondsCEO, thank you for the informative post.

[g.michael]

Thank you Paul for setting me straight with the very thorough explanation—I stand corrected and I enjoyed learning some more about shoe construction.

As many Alden shoes are 270 welts, that must be the main reason for their use of the shank, and you’re right, it’s probably a fairly imperceptible difference from a weight standpoint. My shell MacNeil’s are hefty due to the shell and the thicker sole. It’s not an uncomfortable heft mind you, but the shoe does feel substantial. They are one of my favorite pairs and hope to add a pair in black shell someday.

Not to change the subject but regarding the 360 welt—I am personally a fan of the look although I certainly understand and appreciate the need and place for a 270 welt at times. However,on most of your shoes I personally appreciate the way the 360 makes the shoe look a little more substantial, especially on the Strand. It also looks great on my chili Delray’s that I am wearing right now. Just my $.02.

Take care,
g.michael

[AllenEdmondsCEO]

Thanks, G. You're right about heft being an key part of the styling. What we're able to do now with our recent re-engineering is to let the styling dictate the weightiness of the heel, not the welt construction method. Some shoes should have a tight heel in back to match the sleakness of the toe. Others should have more of an extension around the heel to give that heft. We now can do either one in 360 constructions, which has the added benefit of being better for our manufacturing quality control.

I'm impressed that you have MacNeil's in shell. Those are great shoes and very much on trend. I'm wearing the Strand in Cordovan as I type. It's my favorite shoe these days.

Thanks for your support and loyalty to AE. Wait until you see next year's collections. We have a new Ask Andy Member-inspired lightweight 360 for Spring Summer and some great dress and casual "hefty" shoes for Fall. Our design team is really nailing it right now. I look forward to the AAAC community feedback.

Best,
Paul

[g.michael]

Thank you again Paul for your response. I look forward to all of AE's new developments and congratulations on your recent news regarding the addition of new jobs. I help run a small manufacturing company and we have experienced a slow upturn in business as well, which is welcome given where we were a year ago. American jobs are important and I look forward to continue supporting your company.

g.michael

[LanceW]

Paul,

I am a fan of Allen Edmonds. I am firmly working middle class but have been able to purchase better shoes within the last year and have now accumulated a 4 pair rotation of Park Avenue, Fifth Avenue, Strand & Bucktown.

I understand your research shows customers want more rubber soles but I find them along with my Bucktown to be less comfortable than my leather soled shoes. As a result of your recent rubber sole growth, I find myself unable to source my next few pairs of shoes from AE and hope the market research swings back the other way soon.

For example, your chocolate suede Lucca penny loafer is beautiful but also rubber soled. Since suede is something best kept from the rain, I don't understand its pairing with the rubber sole. I also would like a cigar cordovan chukka boot, non rubber sole, of course. Both of these purchases require me to look outside AE and towards Alden.

I understand you are catering to a market much larger than myself, and even larger than AAAC. I just wanted to be honest about the reasons why I will be temporarily leaving the AE fold.

Thank you for communicating with us.

Respectfully, your customer.
Lance

[Jovan]

Lance: You can special order a certain model and last with the leather and sole type of your choice.

[Kurt N]

I like the style and tone of Lance's post. Not everyone is that thoughtful or polite. Good model for the rest of us (including me) to keep in mind.

[sowilson]

We have a new Ask Andy Member-inspired lightweight 360 for Spring Summer and some great dress and casual "hefty" shoes for Fall. Our design team is really nailing it right now. I look forward to the AAAC community feedback.

Would that be the New Orleans? I saw a couple of pair of spring preview shoes and the New Orleans is just what I'm looking for

[dwebber18]

I really appreciate threads like this. I also really appreciate Paul's interactions and his support and willingness to listen to his consumers. I can't wait to see what he has in store for the coming year.

[michael_legeek]

Like others here I'm very pleased to see AE's CEO taking time to communicate directly with us. I am very much looking forward to seeing the next collection, though my present 7 pairs of AEs -- the first purchased in 1979, I think -- really ought to be deemed sufficient.