Question about Brooks ocbds: unlined, interfaced, lined?

**Cardinals5** · December 2nd, 2009, 08:58

I've read through many of the threads on BB ocbds, specifically about the collars, and have found myself in something of a conundrum concerning the evolution of Brooks' collars. It is my impression that sometime in Brooks' storied history they actually produced a completely unlined collar without any kind of interfacing or lining whatsoever - in other words, just the two pieces of oxford cloth. Looking through the archives, however, I've only come across people who refer to an "unlined" collar as one with interfacing, but not a "heavier" lining (fusible). Am I correct, then, to assume that what people are refering to as an "unlined" collar is one with light cotton interfacing in an open weave, but not a heavier fusible? Or, was there once a BB collar without either interfacing or lining and, if so, when did BB stop making them?

**Speas** · December 2nd, 2009, 09:09

BB's oxford cloth collars were unlined - no fusing or interlining - until a few years back. Dont recall exactly the year but the addition of the interlining came after Marks and Spencer sold BB.

**Cardinals5** · December 2nd, 2009, 09:23

That's what I thought as well, but I have some BB Makers obcds (Made in USA) that must be from the 1980s, - beat up thrift store finds - and I cut the collar open and there's interlining in there. This interlining is a very light cotton with an open weave and is sewn into the collar, but not attached to either side of the external cloth. If you feel the collar from the outside it doesn't feel like anything is between the two outer layers. I guess my question should be, has anyone actually looked inside the collar of one of the old "unlined" BB collars and actually found nothing or have people just assumed the collars had no interlining because they're so soft.

**Jovan** · December 2nd, 2009, 09:32

I got a couple of the "Makers" OCBDs from Cardinals5 and the collars are quite soft, but I can tell that they are lined. I think the heavier lining, more accurately, is what happened after M&S.

**fairway** · December 3rd, 2009, 18:38

I have some from the late 80s and maybe even early 90s(not sure of purchase date but think later in time) that are completely unlined and then some from same eras that are lined with thin "interfacing" (not sure what material is). Both varieties are Makers OCBD.

**qwerty** · December 3rd, 2009, 18:50

I have several BB Makers OCBDs from 1985-2002 and they are all 100% unlined. Unfortunately most of these (especially the oldest ones) are all now fraying at the collar and/or cuffs and/or have elbow holes from my point elbows. There was a hiatus in my OCBD-buying for a few years until around 2006. Since then, all OCBDs are lined. Not fused -- i.e., no glue -- but there is a relatively substantial piece of lining in the collar and cuffs. I much prefer the way they used to do it.

**Cardinals5** · December 3rd, 2009, 19:38

Thanks for relaying your first hand experiences Fairway and Qwerty - my search for the long, lost unlined BB collar can continue.

In your ocbds with unlined collars, is there anything distinctive about the shirt label in the collar from that era, e.g. label is differently shaped, additional or missing text? I'm just curious so that when I look on eBay I can roughly determine the age from the tag. For example, the older, vintage Brooks sack coats all have a black tag that reads

Brooks Brothers,
Established 1818

What seems distinctive about these tags, save that they're black, is the addition of the comma after Brooks Brothers, which is missing on all the blue collar labels I've seen on Brooks' sacks.

**rojo** · December 3rd, 2009, 22:42

From the 1950s (maybe earlier) to the 1980s, the button-down collars of the Brooks oxford cloth shirts were completely unlined. There was just the top and bottom of the collars, with nothing in between. I know because I have many such shirts that have been worn until the collars were so frayed that they actually split open from one end to the other. The collars on the shirts from the late 80s and into the 90s have not split open (yet), but they feel the same as the older shirts. I have one from the late 90s or early 2000s which obviously has another piece of cloth inside the collar. I was so horrified when I found this that I've never bought another oxford shirt from Brooks.

**qwerty** · December 4th, 2009, 06:44

A few photos of labels through the ages.

Exhibit A -- 1980s white OCBD. Fully unlined. Note that these shirts had only 6 buttons and thus a wider gap between the top two buttons...more of an "open" look when not wearing a tie. I like it.

Exhibit B -- 1990s (?) blue OCBD. Fully unlined.This is one of the shirts AlanC has for sale (which I just bought)

Exhibit C -- Late 1990s red uni-stripe OCBD. Fully unlined. They added a bunch of washing instructions to the label

Exhibit D -- Early 2000s blue OCBD. Fully unlined. Ugly label. This is when BB went for the Banana Republic look -- before the tech bubble burst -- and redid many stores in blond wood and chrome/brushed stainless rather than the traditional dark wood and brass. The San Francisco location moved from a gorgeous spot on the corner of Post and Grant the interior of which looked just like 346 Madison to a spot across the street and down the block in which they reside still today.

Exhibit E -- mid-2000s-present slim fit white OCBD. Heavily lined, but NOT fused. Note that this label is blue only because it is slim fit. The labels on slim fit have always been blue. If you go to BB today to buy a regular fit shirt, the label will be red. Note that these new "traditional" labels say "Since 1818" rather than "Makers"

**Cardinals5** · December 4th, 2009, 07:43

Qwerty - Thanks so much for taking the time to put up the pictures! That's a great archive of BB labels, each one rather distinctive, and within a solid timeframe - now I'll know my prey when I'm hunting it. I'm pretty sure that I have shirts with labels 2, 3, and 4; but I've never seen a shirt with that first label. I'm also beginning to realize that my mistake was probably comparing older pinpoint button-downs with the thicker ocbds. The thicker fabric could probably stand (literally) without any kind of interlining while the thinner pinpoints needed a very light, almost undetectable, interlining. In either case, thanks again, and now I can begin a real search.

**dmac** · December 4th, 2009, 11:50

I have a BB ocbd with a completely unlined collar. I know this because it completely frayed. A few years ago I had the collar turned. When the other side frays through, you are welcome to have it for the price of postage as it appears from your other posts that you are interested in clothing construction.

**rojo** · December 4th, 2009, 20:19

Originally Posted by Cardinals5

I've never seen a shirt with that first label.

Now you're making me feel old. I wore Brooks shirts with labels earlier in design than Exhibit A when I was in prep school and college.

**CrackedCrab** · December 4th, 2009, 20:34

I got a couple of those slim fit ones (even though I am not that slim) pictured in the last pic from ebay and love them -- they feel very substantial, (remind my of those polo big shirts from a while back) and I don't mind the lining in the collar and cuffs. This coming from someone who has a ton of totally unlined Mercers in the closet. I just tried to order more from the BB website for the sale and they are backordered in my size and I've come not to trust BB backorder info....

**qwerty** · December 6th, 2009, 19:44

Rojo was kind enough to share with me a few older OCBD shirt labels. See below -- all descriptions and photos are courtesy of Rojo.

1950s. These two, which are identical except for color, one yellow and one pink, are probably from the 1950s. The Textile Fiber Products Identification Act was approved in 1958, but these shirts have no fiber labeling, which dates them to before the Act took effect. The words “Brooks Brothers New York” appear on the oval, and inside the oval it says “MAKERS” and gives the shirt size.

Early 1960s. In the wake of the Textile Fiber Products Identification Act, Brooks Brothers redesigned the shirt label, removing the words “New York” and adding the words “ALL COTTON” at the bottom. These two shirts, like the shirts from the 1950s, have no breast pocket. I read somewhere that Brooks added the breast pocket to its oxford shirts in about 1965 or 1968, which helps date these two shirts.

1982. In December of 1971, the Federal Trade Commission adopted rules for care labeling. Thus the pink oxford shirt that I bought in 1982 has the words “MACHINE WASH HOT” added at the bottom of the label. The warning about chlorine bleach came later.

**Jovan** · December 6th, 2009, 19:51

Thanks, rojo and Qwerty!

**Cardinals5** · December 6th, 2009, 21:13

I second Jovan's thanks to Rojo and Qwerty - this thread must now be one of the best sources on dating BB's shirt labels. Fantastic stuff fellows!

**My Pet, A Pantsuit** · January 6th, 2010, 00:07

Here's a label off of a luxury slim fit as of the past several months. "Makers and Merchants" has also been added to the tags of neckties:

**eris** · April 23rd, 2010, 20:52

clueless as for this label's vintage

**The Rambler** · April 24th, 2010, 06:22

Very cool thread, but is the collar question answered? I am pretty certain, as others, that there was nothing inside the heavier oxford collar into the 80s; and why would there be, those collars were perfect. When did they add pinpoint oxford? maybe that's it?

**Cardinals5** · April 24th, 2010, 07:03

The collar question was answered. The early ocbds had no lining, interlining, or interfacing while the lighter pinpoint collars did have some light interlining, but not facing (i.e. no interlining glued to the exterior fabric).

Ever since I started this thread, I've been meaning to start a new one using the tag images and information provided above so that people, like eris, could date their ocds, but I've never got around to it. One of these days...

**Saltydog** · April 24th, 2010, 20:09

Great pictures and history! However, at the risk of being labled a heretic, I actually prefer the newer collars. I also like heavy starch and for the collar to stand up well. I've worn BB OCBDs for 30 years...but never liked the "floppier" collars as well as Gitman Bros. I guess it's a matter of individual taste and on this forum I'm in the minority...but I do like a bit of lining. Just MHO.

**Chico** · April 24th, 2010, 21:39

I found a brooksweave, 6 button brooks shirt in my local thrift yesterday. It was brooksweave, the 65% poly version with a bleach reference (according the the labels above, this puts it in late seventies, early 80's realm?).

It had a very thin lining I could feel by pinching the collar. It was probably that thin cotton that the orig poster mentions in the 3rd post. I'm always pinching collars looking for unfused, but I've never felt a totally unlined one yet.

Unfused, lined collars feel great though so I'm excited to find a totally unlined collar to try out one of these days.

**Doctor Damage** · April 25th, 2010, 17:07

Originally Posted by rojo

I have one from the late 90s or early 2000s which obviously has another piece of cloth inside the collar. I was so horrified when I found this that I've never bought another oxford shirt from Brooks.

Seriously?

This is a small thing, guys. Don't lose sleep over it.

**Thom Browne's Schooldays** · April 25th, 2010, 19:18

a couple I picked up about a year ago

no idea of the date of the first one (fully unlined), I though the second as an early 80s based on a similar label from an early 80s GQ article about BB.

**Mr. Mac** · April 25th, 2010, 19:29

The brand new BB reg. fit OCBD I'm holding in my hands doesn't seem to have much between the collars. I'm comparing it to a LE Hyde Park and the difference is extremely subtle - at least to me.