Midnight Blue Dinner Jacket - Slacks Options

[oliverpeoples]

Please give me your opinion(s) regarding wearing a midnight blue dinner jacket, with satin shawl collar, with black formal pants, also with satin stripes. The jacket is availabel in a vintage shop without slacks, and I have a perfectly good pair of formal black slacks to wear with it. Don't know if I can even find appropriate midnight blue slacks (good fit, condition, etc.) Would it make a difference if the jacket's collar is a blue satin or a black satin? I have to see it again to determine. I'm considering basic principle "black goes with everything." And the midnight blue jacket is already so special.
Wonder if these jackets were ever worn as a dinner jacket with the standard black slacks or only as a full tuxedo ensemble. I have seen a number of them in the store without pants. Thanks!

[jackmccullough]

I don't know the technical answer, but if you do it I bet you'll look like a guy who rushed out and put the wrong pants on.

I frequently read around here how hard it is to even match black and black, and I think this is going to be worse. It won't be a "look", just a mess.

There probably isn't a rush on this item, so maybe you can bring the pants into the store and try them on together.

[Sator]

No matter what you do and how hard you try to match a pair of trousers to those, it will look like some make shift replacement after the dog eat your trousers. Leave the DJ in the vintage store.

[jackmccullough]

If it's really dirt cheap, how do you think it might look as a dressier casual jacket with blue jeans?

[TMMKC]

I made that mistake (in my early 20s) of trying to match a midnight blue dinner jacket I bought in a thrift shop with black trousers. It didn't work. I tried to wear it as a casual jacket with jeans...but that "look" wasn't me.

[dfloyd]

The midnight blue tuxedo was popularized by singer Tony Martin in the 1950s. He was featured in the advertising, but I cannot remember who made the tuxedo.

An interesting twist is shown on page 253 of Flusser's 'Dressing the Man': A midnight blue db dinner jacket worn with white pants. Wool white pants would be easy to come by, and any tailor should be able to put a white satin stripe on the pants. This combination would be striking if you have the verve to try it. Wearing a retro dinner jacket with jeans would be a disaster.

[oliverpeoples]

He may have done something to popularize it but it is really associated with the Duke of Windsor though, of course, he didn't invent it. Generally, references to his having one made in the '20s refer to it as a "dinner jacket," implying he had the jacket and only the jacket made - and thus wore it with a conventional black formal trousers.
I've gone all the way to the Duke's own book, "Windsor Revisited," which keeps only referring to "jacket" - no reference to entire tuxedo.

[Will]

He may have done something to popularize it but it is really associated with the Duke of Windsor though, of course, he didn't invent it. Generally, references to his having one made in the '20s refer to it as a "dinner jacket," implying he had the jacket and only the jacket made - and thus wore it with a conventional black formal trousers.
I've gone all the way to the Duke's own book, "Windsor Revisited," which keeps only referring to "jacket" - no reference to entire tuxedo.

Go to the Kiton web site where they have a photo of the midnight blue dinner jacket that they purchased from the DOW's estate. The trousers are also blue.

[Mark from Plano]

Go to the Kiton web site where they have a photo of the midnight blue dinner jacket that they purchased from the DOW's estate. The trousers are also blue.

I believe that picture is also used in Manton's article about Wedding Attire, found here:
http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/Tutorials/AntongiavanniWEDDINGATTIRE.htm

[oliverpeoples]

Thanks, but I've seen that article and it only shows what the Duke wore to his own wedding. As for the Kiton website I haven't been able to locate it. It has a color photo?
Anyway, that really doesn't say anything, because the Duke purchased many such jackets or tuxedos over the years. He favored the color and look and went in for it the rest of his life.
At the moment I'm interested in his possibly handling a midnight blue jacket like other colored jackets - with the usual black trousers, and I've read many places he commissioned such a jacket (and only jacket mentioned) in the '20s - probably from a Savile Row tailor.

[Taliesin]

Didn't the Duke commission his jackets and trousers from separate tailors (jackets in England, trousers somewhere else)? I think I recall Boyer writing something to that effect. I think he did this with suits, using the same fabric but different tailors, so that might explain the references merely to the dinner jacket.

In addition, isn't it just ordinary use to refer to a "tuxedo" as a dinner jacket, even when we mean the jacket and trousers worn together as a suit?

[Tom Bell-Drier]

I don`t know if this is answering any of the above points, but my understanding was that midnight blue as a colour for dinner suits was popularized because under artificial lighting conditions the cloth looked blacker than black.

[Will]

Thanks, but I've seen that article and it only show what the Duke wore to his own wedding. As for the Kiton website I haven't been able to locate it. It has a color photo?
Anyway, that really doesn't say anything, because the Duke purchased many such jackets or tuxedos over the years. He favored the color and look and went in for it the rest of his life.
At the moment I'm interested in his possibly handling a midnight blue jacket like other colored jackets - with the usual black trousers, and I've read many places he commissioned such a jacket (and only jacket mentioned) in the '20s - probably from a Savile Row tailor.

I'd give you a link but you obviously didn't even try. So go to Google. Type K I T O N and press Enter.

Dinner jackets consist of a jacket and trousers. They'd be called dinner suits except that's been considered gauche since black trousers were first worn with tailcoats around 1800.

The only time a dinner jacket does not match the trousers is when the coat is white.

[rip]

I'd give you a link but you obviously didn't even try. So go to Google. Type K I T O N and press Enter.

Dinner jackets consist of a jacket and trousers. They'd be called dinner suits except that's been considered gauche since black trousers were first worn with tailcoats around 1800.

The only time a dinner jacket does not match the trousers is when the coat is white.At least when I was growing up, the use of the term "dinner jacket" to refer to the entire suit was specifically British; here in the US, the suit was a tuxedo and the stand-alone white jacket was a dinner jacket. I believe this distinction still prevails except amongst some anglophiles who have adopted certain Britishism into their speech, such as "amongst" :)

[dfloyd]

While the Duke of Windsor, the erstwhile Edward VIII, didn't invent the midnight blue dinner jacket he certainly wore one. Dinner jacket refers to the entire formal suit as Tuxedo does - the difference between British and American terminology. The invention of the dinner jacket lies with Edward VII who wanted a jacket without tails and matching black pants versus stripes.

One of the Lorillards, from the tobacco family, copied Edward VIIs idea but didn't follow through with it. However, his son, Griswold Lorrilard wore the formal suit to the Autumn ball - I believe in 1886 - which was held in Tuxedo Park, New York. Legend has it that the ball hostess was mortified and Griswold was asked to leave and the Tuxedo was born.

Hence Tuxedo is an American term and Dinner Jacket is an English one. Dinner Jacket refers entire ensemble. So when the Duke of Windsor is said to be wearing a midnight blue Dinner Jacket, it means he was wearing a jacket and trousers of Midnight Blue. Under no ccircumstances should a Midnight Blue jacket be worn with black trousers!

[Sator]

They'd be called dinner suits except that's been considered gauche since black trousers were first worn with tailcoats around 1800.

However, the term "dress suit" for the dress and matching trousers was always a well established term. Somewhat to my surprise, recently I encountered the term "dinner suit" on Savile Row more often in one day than in my whole life.

[bluetag39]

If you are playing with the Band then you can wear black pants with a Midnight Blue dinner jacket.

[Sator]

If you are playing with the Band then you can wear black pants with a Midnight Blue dinner jacket.

Translation: if the lights are dimmed and you are hidden amongst lots of other people nobody will notice :icon_smile_big:

[oliverpeoples]

As for the guy who said I obviously didn't look up the word "Kiton," through a search engine, did you? I'm a professional librarian who does searching all the time.... Plug in "Kiton" in Yahoo or Google and you find a website all in Italian; I couldn't tell exactly what illustration you were referring to. Plenty of websites with Kiton, as well. Like I said, one suit don't prove anything....
Now, as to vocabulary usage. If a "dinner jacket" in England implies an entire suite of jacket and pants, it's definitely an oddity in usage I wasn't aware of. I've got the Duke's own extremely fascinating book of 1960 -"Windors Revisited" - and his reference to the "midnight-blue dinner jacket" does not imply whole suit at all. Not from the description. Nor when he gets into double breasted variations. In other cases it's an American writer I'm referring to. Many also say "tuxedo jacket" which makes it very clear.
I'll see how it goes - hopefully as soon as tomorrow. I have a list of features to notice when I see the jacket in question and if passes my muster I'll then go on the search for the appropriate "midnight blue tuxedo pants." The place with the jacket happens to be the most likely place in town to search for the pants. And I'm willing to have a pair shortened if they pass otherwise. And there are other places.
I would be nice, though, if I'd be satisfied with the blue/black combo, but it looks like I may not be any more. Also, were the facings black it could make a difference.
I've still got a little time before my daughter's wedding (yes, that's the major event all this fuss is for). Until last week I was fairly set to wear my '70s burgandy dinner jacket with the aforementioned trousers, but....
Oh well, shopping challenges are one of the major items that keeps me going. Big time!

[Literide]

Please give me your opinion(s) regarding wearing a midnight blue dinner jacket, with satin shawl collar, with black formal pants, also with satin stripes. The jacket is availabel in a vintage shop without slacks, and I have a perfectly good pair of formal black slacks to wear with it. Don't know if I can even find appropriate midnight blue slacks (good fit, condition, etc.) Would it make a difference if the jacket's collar is a blue satin or a black satin? I have to see it again to determine. I'm considering basic principle "black goes with everything." And the midnight blue jacket is already so special.
Wonder if these jackets were ever worn as a dinner jacket with the standard black slacks or only as a full tuxedo ensemble. I have seen a number of them in the store without pants. Thanks!

Just the thing to wear with a pair of tartan trews, with or w/o the satin stripe, for home entertaining or less formal black tie social affairs.

Pick a tartan long on blue and you will be very happy. Also, EG makes Albert slippers in a very dark blue.

Cheers,

[Will]

As for the guy who said I obviously didn't look up the word "Kiton," through a search engine, did you? I'm a professional librarian who does searching all the time.... Plug in "Kiton" in Yahoo or Google and you find a website all in Italian; I couldn't tell exactly what illustration you were referring to. Plenty of websites with Kiton, as well. Like I said, one suit don't prove anything....


Perhaps you didn't notice the "Inglese" link.

http://www.kiton.it/kitita/indexg.htm

Go to History and then Duke of Windsor collection.

[oliverpeoples]

Yes, thanks. I was rushing; that's what I get for doin' this stuff on a work break. I still say, though, this is only ONE suit, and also "white tie."
Now I wonder if the Duke's blues were as light as the photos would indicate, or if they photos were "engineered" spicifically to emphasize how different this line of apparel was from a straight black.
Some say, and I believe it, that Alan Flusser "engineered" some of the "before and after" photos in his "Dressing the Man" of 2002 to emphsize his points.

[Will]

If you are looking for some written proof that's more definitive than what you're reading here I doubt if you'll find it.

If you want to wear it, go ahead. Be warned that in the unlikely event that I see you, I reserve the right to make snide remarks to my companions. All of them will be wearing trousers that match their jackets.

[fullgrain]

I'll see how it goes - hopefully as soon as tomorrow. I have a list of features to notice when I see the jacket in question and if passes my muster I'll then go on the search for the appropriate "midnight blue tuxedo pants." The place with the jacket happens to be the most likely place in town to search for the pants. And I'm willing to have a pair shortened if they pass otherwise. And there are other places.

Oliver, and I say this as someone who holds the MLS degree in high esteem, PLEASE PLEASE don't, especially not for such an important occasion as your daughter's wedding; it would be like sorting the PNs next to the PAs. The DJ sounds cool, and might be fun with a pair of cream or mid-grey trousers if you're the sort that can pull that off. But trying to "match" differing batches of similarly or even the same color fabric is just going to look bad, just really mismatched, almost every time. Maybe try ebay if you really want a tux?

[nicksull]

The midnight blue tuxedo was popularized by singer Tony Martin in the 1950s. He was featured in the advertising, but I cannot remember who made the tuxedo.

An interesting twist is shown on page 253 of Flusser's 'Dressing the Man': A midnight blue db dinner jacket worn with white pants. Wool white pants would be easy to come by, and any tailor should be able to put a white satin stripe on the pants.

Accessorise with conductor's baton and 32piece swing orchestra......

[Midnight Blue]

Regarding "dinner jacket" traditionally referring to a jacket and matching trousers, etiquette books from the 20s through the 50s certainly prove this out. They frequently describe the entire black tie ensemble under the heading "dinner jacket" or, in some American editions, "dinner jacket or tuxedo".

I also agree that midnight blue and black are far too similar to look like anything but a mismatched suit. Check out the comparitive photos I posted at http://www.blacktieguide.com/Classic_Components/Jacket.htm

[oliverpeoples]

Eureka! Success! The morale of this little tale is I went back to my vintage stores today and ended up with a fabulous new tuxedo - matching dinner jacket and pants. I had considered Internet, renting, and various other options regarding the blue pants....
Tried on lots of midnight blue formal slacks - these are so difficult to find today but this place had so many.... The jacket I was entranced with last week turned out to be a speck large and I got down to the last pair of trousers as a possibilty and they had sort of a funny stripe.
Then I went back and started looking at complete tuxedos - a few black if they had peaked or shawl collars, and other features perhaps superior to my '70s burgandy jacket.
Got down to the very last possibilty (some tuxedos had clownish pants, some had huge or tight jackets, holes, too heavy a wool, etc.
I got something so marvelous and "timeless" I think Flusser would be proud. I should send him the bill! Even the Duke of Windsor might take notice....
Very deep but midnight blue, shawl collar in black satin, no vents, one button single breasted (I can use my Kilgour cummerbund), four buttons on sleeves. Besam pockets with no flaps and thus there are no outlines where the flaps would come down. Pants have button fly (at least no zipper to break). Excellent condition.
Excellent fit, except pants must be shortened. Beautiful fabric, with a super subtle texture. Guess what? Perhaps my absolute first choice would be a bespoke tuxedo from a Savile Row or St. James's tailor, but this one is from a tailor in Paris - the ONLY one I saw! The name is Paul Portes. Haven't found much on him on the 'net but I'll pursue further. Does anyone here have any familiarity with this shop? The label is on the opposite side of where American labels are.
The ensemble is difficult for me to date - it's oh-so classic, but the shawl is not too wide (not too narrow either) such that the full pocket for pocket square is exposed. I'd say it's not that old - perhaps '80s on? Of course if I could find out the years of the tailor it might help in dating it.... I did see a 1928 Paul Portes ad on the 'net.
No hole in lapel or collar but that's just one of Flusser's peeves. I suppose bone or fabric buttons would have made the whole thing absolute perfection but big deal! The buttons are plastic but very simple and assumably original.
I'm sure that even most purists among you might allow me to wear my black cummerbund with this ensemble, as the cummerbund is basically an accessory and it's the color of the shawl collar, and shoes.
I love French things in general so that just adds to my joy. I've come long way in my thinking in the few weeks I've posted here on this daughter's wedding issue but I hope you guys approve. As if I should care.... Hee hee.

[oliverpeoples]

Mr. Midnight Blue - Your Black Tie Guide is so, so Flusser. One might wonder if you are the guy himself. I sort of have many of his phrases memorized and saw them again. Yeah, yeah, I know you disagree with the buttoning jacket thing....
Anyway, thanks.

[oliverpeoples]

Took the trousers to one of our best tailors for some shortening and he told me it's a wool mohair combination and the extremely faint stripes - seen only in certain lighting - can be called "shadow stripes."
Paul Portes in in Flusser's "Making the Man" of 1981 and that shop's description is indeed impressive. In fact, Flusser wrote their two-piece suits "start at $1,200!"

[tom78]

Translation: if the lights are dimmed and you are hidden amongst lots of other people nobody will notice :icon_smile_big:

In most dinner settings it is exceptionally unlikely that anyone will notice, given that the lighting is usually subdued and nobody will see your trousers under the table and your napkin.

As a thought, it's more stylish to wear a beautifully cut vintage midnight-blue dinner jacket with black pants than a shiny, badly cut, modern black dinner jacket!

[rip]

In most dinner settings it is exceptionally unlikely that anyone will notice, given that the lighting is usually subdued and nobody will see your trousers under the table and your napkin.

As a thought, it's more stylish to wear a beautifully cut vintage midnight-blue dinner jacket with black pants than a shiny, badly cut, modern black dinner jacket!This may be true, but it's difficult to reconcile the term "stylish" with mis-matched jacket and pants.