Advice requested! Custom or Zegna Made to Measure

[shantanu]

1st off, this is my first post. I just found forum a few days ago.. and dizzam! You guys rock. A lot of info on suits, sales, pants, tailors, etc.

My question/about me: 25, 5'10, 150lbs. No shoulders. I work in finance but my job does not require a suit day-to-day.. in fact have been here for 9 months and have never needed a suit.. that said, I do have 3 weddings this year to attend + I do need 2 suits (for work, pleasure who knows when I'll need a suit).

My original budget was $1000-2000 per suit. I like to consider myself a little trendy, and was thinking Valentino, D&G or maybe Zegna if price was right. Saw my tailor (who brought in a jacket I had bought from Barneys) and he suggested Paul Smith or Costume International.

I went to Paul Smith this past Sat.. but shoulders still too big! Leads me to believe that no off-the-rack suit would fit me.

Went to Zegna.. skipped Z-Sport because of just general reviews. Saw the Roma line and Zegna Couture line. I really like the Couture stuff - a narrow fit and they could make-to-measure so it would fit real nice.. but at $4000 all in.. this is 2x my budget for just 1 suit. They also have Roma line which would be $3000, made to measure in the same fabric. Was not able to get a clear answer to whether the difference between Roma/Couture was just machine vs. handmade (Couture is 100% handmade) or whether there was an actual fit/drop difference (I would get made to measure...)

In the end $3K is still on high-side. If a Zegna made-to-measure is worth it (people can tell its a nice suit, gets me bridesmaids at the wedding, style will keep for 3-5 years) then I could go maybe consider pulling the trigger on either Roma or Couture. And then have suit copied by another tailor to average down my cost on 2 suits overall.

OR - should I go bespoke? My issue with bespoke is I don't know what I really want in a suit. 3 button, edgy, fairly slim-fitting on my narrow frame is what I would want. But I would hate to spend $3k without knowing how I will look like. I don't know which tailors have a young/edgy/but conservative silhoutte that I am seeking. Heck, Zegna might not even be right for me!!

Any/all help appreciated!

p.s. at Zegna I was considering a dark navy blue suit with relatively thicker blue pin-stripes. I originally wanted to get 2 suits in charcoal and grey.. was told they were "colors in 2006". Blue fabric just looked great though without the halo of a silk blend (I'm only 25.. can't be too glossy..). I was also between 38R and 40R at Zegna.. taller enough for 40R but thin enough for 38R - this in inline with my H.S. off-rack suit which was 39L.. so I am same shape but less room around the belly

[RichardS]

I had garments made by various MTM and bespoke makers over the years. My experiences with Zegna MTM have always been rewarding ones. The suits fit me quite well though I am not that hard to fit (6`2, 164lbs).

That`s a pic of Zegna RTW but I had my MTM made in a similar way:

http://img130.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn197610224xa.jpg

BTW, prices for Zegna standard line MTM in Germany are about EUR 1.700 - EUR 2.500,-- and upwards. As for cut: I recently bought a Couture OTR suit which includes a lot more handwork than the Standard line but is cut in nearly the same way as my Zegna MTMs.

[DocHolliday]

My two bits, for what they're worth: If you're going to have only two suits, and only for weddings and special occasions, I'd suggest you avoid more trendy stylings. You just won't get much wear out of them before the trend passes. You don't have to go old-man staid, but a relatively conservative navy suit by, say, Canali or Corneliani can give you the style you want yet last many, many years. Canali might not be best for the frame you describe, but Corneliani might work nicely.

As for the Zegna, I'd be leery of buying one with the intent of getting a less expensive copy made. Trying to find a tailor to duplicate a $3k suit for significantly less than $3k seems like a recipe for a shoddy suit. Rather than that, you might just keep trying on suits until you decide what features you want and what looks good on you. Once you know that, you'll be in a better place to decide whether to go bespoke. Maybe along the way you'll find a RTW line that works well for your body.

Finally, on fabric selection: I quite like pinstripes and chalkstripes, but they're not as versatile as solids. I love a good chalkstripe, for example, but I would feel improperly dressed wearing one to, say, a funeral. Just something to consider.

Good luck, and I hope you'll keep us posted on what you decide.

[ice]

No question, go bespoke. A good tailor will make you a suit that fits like a glove, and you will look fantastic. He should be able to guide you into a fashionable style, but if I were you I would just ask for something that fills in your shoulders and nips in the waist, to give you a bit of that hourglass shape. You will look fantastic and no made-to-measure suit will give you that look.
If you like Zegna, choose a Zegna fabric. The rest is tailoring. There is no magic to Zegna, just beautiful materials, timeless cuts, and careful tailoring. I think that most tailors offer Zegna fabrics. And nothing looks or feels as good as bespoke, plus it comes with an unofficial lifetime service and maintenance.

[shantanu]

quote:Originally posted by DocHolliday

My two bits, for what they're worth: If you're going to have only two suits, and only for weddings and special occasions, I'd suggest you avoid more trendy stylings.

As for the Zegna, I'd be leery of buying one with the intent of getting a less expensive copy made. Trying to find a tailor to duplicate a $3k suit for significantly less than $3k seems like a recipe for a shoddy suit.

Finally, on fabric selection: I love nice pinstripes and chalkstripes, but they're not as versatile as solids.



I read in more than one place that a great made-to-measure suit is better than an OK bespoke suit. I figured Zegna MTM suit = great.. and unless I found the *right* tailor w/ right silhouette etc. I would most likely end up with OK bespoke suit for same price.

1) I guess I don't know how 'trendy' the Zegna line is. The lapel seemed normal (thin, although Roma line had a high-lapel), 3-button (zegna tailor came out and said I need 3 to accenture weak upperbody). Are Zegna's considered more 'trendy'? I am young and single so I would actually prefer a 'trendy' suit, but only if it will last me 2-4 years at least.

2) You don't think I could get a solid copy done for $2k? If I went to Jay Kos and just asked him to copy a suit in a certain fabric, he would charge the full price as if he was making me a bespoke suit?

3) Definitely going pin striped. I love them. As my 3rd or 4th suit, I may go solids.. but more likely a nice light grey. Zegna had some real real nice ones.. but couldn't justify it for my main suit. Unless I get 2 for equal prices to start, most likely will be spedning more on 1 than other.. i consider this to be my "main suit"

All of this is very much appreciated!

[shantanu]

do you have a recommendation for a tailor for $1500-$3K that makes great suits for younger and thinner people. I like to dress sharp, and I think I like the paul smith shape better than a brooks brothers/fuller cut. I honestly don't know the difference between a Paul Smith silhouette and Zegna silhouette.

I think Thom Brown's suits are all right if he could get the pant legs a little longer as well...

[Concordia]

Where are you based?

[shantanu]

quote:Originally posted by Concordia

Where are you based?


New York City

[DocHolliday]

quote:Originally posted by shantanu

1) I guess I don't know how 'trendy' the Zegna line is. The lapel seemed normal (thin, although Roma line had a high-lapel), 3-button (zegna tailor came out and said I need 3 to accenture weak upperbody). Are Zegna's considered more 'trendy'? I am young and single so I would actually prefer a 'trendy' suit, but only if it will last me 2-4 years at least.


I should clarify: My comments on trendiness were directed toward your stated interest in trendy suits, rather than toward Zegna in particular. I think you'd be better off with a Zegna, for example, than many fashion brands, at least if you want long-term wear.

quote:
2) You don't think I could get a solid copy done for $2k? If I went to Jay Kos and just asked him to copy a suit in a certain fabric, he would charge the full price as if he was making me a bespoke suit?


Suitmaking doesn't quite work like this. There's much more that goes into it. If cut, fit and quality could be duplicated this easily, I imagine many people would have a closet full of Kiton clones. Now, if you're just talking about stylistic elements -- width of lapel, type of pockets, etc. -- those can be copied. But that brings you back to knowing what you like. If you're going to spend $2K, I think you'd be better off getting a first-quality Corneliani (for example) than a poor man's knockoff Zegna.

I can appreciate your fondness for pinstripes. But I'd strongly recommend you make sure at least one is relatively subtle. Being the only guy wearing a bright chalkstripe in a sea of solids can make you feel rather conspicuous, to say the least.

All just my opinion, of course. Good luck with this.

[charle22]

shantanu ~

Zegna's Couture line is superb ... I prefer bespoke at $4K, however.

ca. $2-3K gets you into either Oxxford or Isaia MTM; the later being as stylish as Zegna, but at a lower price point - their new V-model has a nicely roped shoulder

[shantanu]

What are roped shoulders.. does provide the 'accent'.. i.e. padding the edge of the shoulder, not the entire shoulder, resulting in an incline towards the edge of the shoulder?

Thank you everyone for your help. It sounds like I have a lot more research to do if I want to save myself some $ and hold off on the Zegna MTM.

[manton]

On a roped shoulder, the sleevehead is raised, not necessarily the entire shoulder. Though an unpadded shoulder with roping can be done, it is not so common.

[iammatt]

quote:Originally posted by manton

On a roped shoulder, the sleevehead is raised, not necessarily the entire shoulder. Though an unpadded shoulder with roping can be done, it is not so common.


My feeling is that the more natural, unpadded or sloped a shoulder is, the stranger a rope at the end looks.

[manton]

Rope on a convex, rounded shoulder looks like a costune from an early 70s sci-fi movie. Rope in a pitched shoulder can look good, though it is not for me. You can pitch a shoulder without padding, but it's hard.

[Andre Yew]

Here's an example of a roped shoulder:

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/7988/zegna9so.th.gif (http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zegna9so.gif)

The distinct ridge at the top of the sleeve where it meets the shoulder is the roping.

--Andre

[shantanu]

quote:Originally posted by manton

Rope on a convex, rounded shoulder looks like a costune from an early 70s sci-fi movie.


Yes, if I end up spending over $2k per suit.. I definitely want to avoid this!

Sounds like my plan is: go to Bergdorf, spent 3 hrs, and get an idea of what I want. Then either lift a suit at Bergdorf, hit up some other boutiques (Isiah/Costume International), and also do some work on finding a potential bespoke tailor. Compare all options/prices and then make a decision.

I really though buying a suit would be easier for whatever stupid reason. I didn't realize my shoulders were so small for off-the-rack. Last batch I had done were in India at ~$200/suit and boy did they fall apart quick! (my old job required suitage more than my current job).

[iammatt]

quote:Originally posted by manton

Rope on a convex, rounded shoulder looks like a costune from an early 70s sci-fi movie. Rope in a pitched shoulder can look good, though it is not for me. You can pitch a shoulder without padding, but it's hard.


What exactly does a pitched shoulder mean? Also, if you would be so kind, can you tell me what the designation for this shoulder would be?
http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/8315/cuf2ml.jpg

[manton]

quote:Originally posted by iammatt

What exactly does a pitched shoulder mean?
It curves down from the neck, then back up toward the sleevehead, concave all the way. It looks like a ski-jump, only less dramatic.

The pic you posted looks like an unpadded, Neapolitan rounded shoulder with an open seam.

[iammatt]

quote:Originally posted by manton

quote:Originally posted by iammatt

What exactly does a pitched shoulder mean?
It curves down from the neck, then back up toward the sleevehead, concave all the way. It looks like a ski-jump, only less dramatic.

The pic you posted looks like an unpadded, Neapolitan rounded shoulder with an open seam.


With each answer a new question.:D What is an open seam?

[manton]

Hard to put in words.

Every seam has a "seam allowance," that is, excess cloth of 1/4" width or so tucked inside where it can't be seen. What you do to that seam allowance effects how the seam looks on the outside, where it shows. If you fold each side back away from the seam and press them down flat, i.e., opening up the seam on the inside, then the outside will look as flat and smooth as possible. The sides of trousers, for instace, typically have open seams.

Now, if you leave the seam closed, then the two strips of seam allowance cloth will stay parallel to each other. On the outer or finished side of the garment, you will see a pronounced "valley" where the two pieces of cloth come together. A roped shoulder typically has a closed seam and some wadding in the sleevehead. A shoulder with an open seam appears to fall smoothly over the deltoid with as little definition to the sleevehead as possible.

[iammatt]

quote:Originally posted by manton

Hard to put in words.

Every seam has a "seam allowance," that is, excess cloth of 1/4" width or so tucked inside where it can't be seen. What you do to that seam allowance effects how the seam looks on the outside, where it shows. If you fold each side back away from the seam and press them down flat, i.e., opening up the seam on the inside, then the outside will look as flat and smooth as possible. The sides of trousers, for instace, typically have open seams.

Now, if you leave the seam closed, then the two strips of seam allowance cloth will stay parallel to each other. On the outer or finished side of the garment, you will see a pronounced "valley" where the two pieces of cloth come together. A roped shoulder typically has a closed seam and some wadding in the sleevehead. A shoulder with an open seam appears to fall smoothly over the deltoid with as little definition to the sleevehead as possible.


Thanks. Is one or the other preferable on the shoulder shown, or can it be done both ways to good effect? Also, when you described how Raphael constructed you waterfall shoulder, was this the same technique you describe as an open seam?

Thanks for all the clarifications!

[manton]

I think a closed seam on the shoulder you posted would look bad, personally.

The shoulder you are asking about is neither, but a "spalla camicia" in which both strips of seam allowance are folded up under the shoulder and then secured with a top stich that shows on the outside of the coat. There is no definition at all in the sleevehead -- no wadding, and not even the seam allowance to hold it up -- which is partly why you get those rainfall ripples in the upper sleeve.

[iammatt]

Thanks as always for the explanations.

[shantanu]

When I see that suit/model shot it makes me want to buy Zegna!

Does anyone know the difference between Sartorial and Couture Napoli lines? I don't even think the Zegna on 5th Ave even showed me a Sartorial.

Also what I found interesting was that the patterns on display for Couture didn't match the patterns shown on website. Patterns on display were less staid.

[charle22]

shantanu ~


Rocco, NYC Zegna's store manager is very informed about various lines. In past conversations, he implied certain modifications can be made when ordering MTM.

[Andre Yew]

quote:Originally posted by manton
The shoulder you are asking about is neither, but a "spalla camicia" in which both strips of seam allowance are folded up under the shoulder and then secured with a top stich that shows on the outside of the coat.


For an example of this, just look inside the shoulders of one of your dress shirts. I believe spalla camicia shoulders are very similarly sewn.

--Andre

[pkincy]

Maybe NYC is simply more expensive but I buy Zegna at full retail at a bit short of 2k$. We just had a Zegna trunk show at Saks where some of the MTM fees are waived and some of the fabrics I was considering would have put me at 2100-2300$. I ended up getting a charcoal grey 2006 3 button model in 260g wt (I am in Scottsdale) for $1895 that fit nearly perfectly so passed on the mtm.

You certainly can spend more but why? These are Super 120's with a beautiful hand and with a budget why not stay at the more normal end of the line. For 3-4K, I can see one nice suit and a sale suit plus a sports jacket and a couple of pair of dress slacks.

I would imagine in NY and with your desire for a bit of a younger look you can get most of your basics 30-70% back of retail.

Perry

[Chris Despos]

quote:quote:
Originally posted by iammatt

What exactly does a pitched shoulder mean?

It curves down from the neck, then back up toward the sleevehead, concave all the way. It looks like a ski-jump, only less dramatic.

The pic you posted looks like an unpadded, Neapolitan rounded shoulder with an open seam.


While at the CTDA meeting in Las Vegas I met the President of the Academy of Tailors from Rome. All the jackets he makes in his shop are without shoulder pads and the shoulders are concave. I had never seen anything like this before. His own jackets were cut this way and also had no front dart. His jackets were incredible. I actually asked to try one on. We were about the same size. The armholes were very high. The jacket had great movement, I was very impressed. To give a jacket such expression without padding and to cut a jacket so close to the body...wow! Like I said, I've never seen clothes like this before.
Sorry to be off subject of your post but I had to comment about this.